tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7555958.post115449489141813735..comments2024-03-18T12:52:48.117-07:00Comments on Mini-Microsoft: 10,000 More Microsofties - What Do They Do?Who da'Punkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18205453956191063442noreply@blogger.comBlogger206125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7555958.post-1159432165314511782006-09-28T01:29:00.000-07:002006-09-28T01:29:00.000-07:00I think that some of you here ought to respect the...I think that some of you here ought to respect the people getting hired into Microsoft. Microsoft has gotten a lot tougher on their hiring process. <BR/>There's definitely an arrogant atmosphere with the people who work there. That is okay at times but I find many of you complaint too much and belittle other positions which I do not think you could possibly comment on unless you have been there.<BR/><BR/>Microsoft is one of the most successful companies based on their strategies. It is simple yet agressive. There really is like 3 main different type of positions at microsoft other then the executive levels.<BR/><BR/>I only listen to people who put their own money out and take a dive to get where they want. Microsoft took many estreme but calcualted risk and they are on eof the most successful and admired company. <BR/><BR/>I can understand some griping but for those extremes who are working at Microsoft and criticizing their decisions and questioning the intelligence? You are part of it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7555958.post-1156640909165534072006-08-26T18:08:00.000-07:002006-08-26T18:08:00.000-07:00I think KaiFu is posting the anonymous praise of h...I think KaiFu is posting the anonymous praise of his performance on this blog. Everybody at MSFT knows the truth about him. The reason we sued Google was because he funneled a bunch proprietary info to them. If Google's stupid enough to hire somebody did that, they deserve what they getAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7555958.post-1156606697525871822006-08-26T08:38:00.000-07:002006-08-26T08:38:00.000-07:00Kai-Fu got Speech Server to 1.0 - it's others' fai...<I> Kai-Fu got Speech Server to 1.0 - it's others' failures that they didn't carry on his great foundation. </I><BR/><BR/>Are you kidding? After Speech Server 1.0, Kai-Fu hired Richard Bray who screwed up Speech Server 2.0. Kai-Fu was unable to keep XD Huang. It is XD that got 1.0 shipped. The fact that Kai-Fu was even unable to keep his close friends working for him was a case in point on his leadership.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7555958.post-1156293295223205682006-08-22T17:34:00.000-07:002006-08-22T17:34:00.000-07:00To the new SDET, be a sponge.Microsoft is an aweso...To the new SDET, be a sponge.<BR/><BR/>Microsoft is an awesome learning environment if you can use it. The presentations, technical resources, tools, access to source code, and the bug database are great resources for learning.<BR/><BR/>You can learn more in 6 months than you learned in your entire college experience.<BR/><BR/>The rest is a crapshoot.<BR/><BR/>With a good manager, you might have a chance. With a bad manager, life can go from sunshine and tulips one day to chinese water torture the next.<BR/><BR/>Just switch groups once you get that 4.0 and if you slip into the 3.0 range, leave on your own before you let them put you on a performance improvement plan.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7555958.post-1156193959681118302006-08-21T13:59:00.000-07:002006-08-21T13:59:00.000-07:00To anon at 10:51pm - you are mean. Companies need...To anon at 10:51pm - you are mean. Companies need good leaders. I never said I was going to try to lead a test team tomorrow. But I am doing my best every day to become better at my current job and to motivate myself to do more so that someday I can help other people do more and make more of a difference.<BR/><BR/>The next post - I have loans to pay off :) and as I stated, in a few years I'd like to contribute in a bigger way. If I can. But from so many negative posts, it looks like there's nowhere for me to go.<BR/><BR/>I think it just means I have to try harder.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7555958.post-1156140885257407042006-08-20T23:14:00.000-07:002006-08-20T23:14:00.000-07:00The pay is too good for just-graduated-from-colleg...<I>The pay is too good for just-graduated-from-college to leave though.<BR/></I><BR/><BR/>You are getting good money now for bad long term prospects. My free advice:- Think long-term.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7555958.post-1156139518881623802006-08-20T22:51:00.000-07:002006-08-20T22:51:00.000-07:00I got hired as an SDET in May and now I want to cr...<I>I got hired as an SDET in May and now I want to cry. No promotions, nothing beyond level 62 or so for SDETS... I enjoy breaking things down and of course finding flaws in other people's code :) but I thought I'd like to move to leadership, where I can see the big picture or at least a slightly bigger piece of it.<BR/></I><BR/><BR/>My prediction? You will get fired in a few years. Attitudes like yours will surely get you canned. You want to be a leader, straight outta college - what an imbecileAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7555958.post-1156114722734509192006-08-20T15:58:00.000-07:002006-08-20T15:58:00.000-07:00I got hired as an SDET in May and now I want to cr...I got hired as an SDET in May and now I want to cry. No promotions, nothing beyond level 62 or so for SDETS... I enjoy breaking things down and of course finding flaws in other people's code :) but I thought I'd like to move to leadership, where I can see the big picture or at least a slightly bigger piece of it.<BR/><BR/>Sounds like I can't get anywhere from being an SDET though. The pay is too good for just-graduated-from-college to leave though.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7555958.post-1155949521019557372006-08-18T18:05:00.000-07:002006-08-18T18:05:00.000-07:00Kai-fu was a terrible leader. What he lacked chari...<I>Kai-fu was a terrible leader. What he lacked charisma, charm, and personality he made up for in arrogance and narrow-mindedness. Now I realize I can\'t offer proof for this</I><BR/><BR/>Why the Kai-fu bashing? If you can't offer proof, then you are BS'ing, lying, or both.<BR/><BR/>He was average at worst, I would say he was above average. I can think of at least 20 VP's who were much less effective than him.<BR/><BR/>Kai-fu always said that he was a 1.0 guy and he was a more a researcher rather than a product manager. He got Speech Server to 1.0 - it's others' failures that they didn't carry on his great foundation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7555958.post-1155907191243983312006-08-18T06:19:00.000-07:002006-08-18T06:19:00.000-07:00But if you don't recognise your natural leader (PM...<I>But if you don't recognise your natural leader (PM) because of whatever reason, chances are that you will remain a grunt for a long time.</I><BR/><BR/>Dude , Respect should be earned but not given through a 5 hour Intervew loop. In my last 6 years at MS, I have worked with a lot of PMs who don't even know how to use their feature and these people represent the feature at GM\PUM level. There were only 2 PMs that I was truly impressed , both of them worked as Devs for at elast 6 years before they become PMs. We are Technology company and PMs should be technical.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7555958.post-1155852180784816772006-08-17T15:03:00.000-07:002006-08-17T15:03:00.000-07:00"4. There is a technical descrimination within Mic..."4. There is a technical descrimination within Microsoft. The more technical a person appears to be, the more he/she is acknowledged. People who appear to be less technical (MSN, Tech Writers, some Testers) are often marginalized or ignored."<BR/><BR/>Just out of curiosity, the subsidiaries from Latin America are the right opposite! If you are technical you have lower levels, status and acknowledge, if you are part of management, marketing, MSN, etc... you can have a great career. For LATAM the more technical a person appears to be, the LESS he/she is acknowledged. Mini this is a good subject for a new article...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7555958.post-1155697687675811272006-08-15T20:08:00.000-07:002006-08-15T20:08:00.000-07:00"Some Testers spend more time writing automation t..."Some Testers spend more time writing automation than looking at the product."<BR/><BR/>Well DUH!!! Where have you been? We're not supposed to test the product anymore: automation does that. So testers automate and test/fix the automation. Then there is automation to check the result of the automation and automation to record the result of the check of the automation. You gotta automate that too. <BR/><BR/>Thankfully there are many tools to do all that that, and as soon as they are debugged and work as advertised everything will float like a butterfly and sting like a bee. Ooooh yeaaaah baby!!!<BR/><BR/>It's a beautiful system. Sure Vista will be a bit late but it won't have any bugs so it's all worth it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7555958.post-1155686162433165562006-08-15T16:56:00.000-07:002006-08-15T16:56:00.000-07:00Dev vs. Test vs. PM vs. ManagersI wish that mini w...Dev vs. Test vs. PM vs. Managers<BR/><BR/>I wish that mini would open up comments on the topic. It is not so much that Devs hate Testers or that either is stupid or irrelevant. <BR/><BR/>The angst is a symptom of other problems.<BR/><BR/>1. Management levels go too high before Dev, Test, and PM reconnect to a common goal.<BR/><BR/>2. Scheduling screw-ups inflate inter-disciplinary angst. If Dev slips, dev goes on to the next project or maybe even has some slack-time while test is pressured to squeeze their schedule to make up the lost time.<BR/><BR/>3. There are genuine problems. Some PMs try to pass off horribly incomplete specs. Some Devs try to push the check-in window to the last second. Some Testers spend more time writing automation than looking at the product. Some Managers try to pretend that problems don't exist and hope that they will go away. Some people try to abuse the lack of oversight and see how long they can go without doing any work at all.<BR/><BR/>4. There is a technical descrimination within Microsoft. The more technical a person appears to be, the more he/she is acknowledged. People who appear to be less technical (MSN, Tech Writers, some Testers) are often marginalized or ignored.<BR/><BR/>5. Management is bombarded with requests for un-ending reports and presentations while they are forced to fight so many fires caused by other groups that quite a few things are always falling on the floor.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7555958.post-1155356573479630042006-08-11T21:22:00.000-07:002006-08-11T21:22:00.000-07:00emphasizing profits over customer service, you get...emphasizing profits over customer service, you get more of that instead.<BR/><BR/>--<BR/><BR/>We emphasize revenue over profits.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7555958.post-1155323653866906762006-08-11T12:14:00.000-07:002006-08-11T12:14:00.000-07:00You know, there are very few absolutes in the busi...You know, there are very few absolutes in the business world, but one of them is this: <B> You get the behavior you reward. </B> If you reward teamwork, creativity, and innovation, you get more. If you reward politics, empire-building, and emphasizing profits over customer service, you get more of that instead.<BR/><BR/>What does YOUR manager reward?<BR/><BR/>- Not an MS employee, actually a UNIX bigot who'll admit that Windows 2003 server doesn't suckAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7555958.post-1155279509283913492006-08-10T23:58:00.000-07:002006-08-10T23:58:00.000-07:00These are the words from our leader Steven Sinofsk...<I>These are the words from our leader Steven Sinofsky. It shows PMs dont have limit to their potential where as dev has limit. How many UI controls can one write?</I><BR/><BR/>Then he too will fail, if he believes in that and rewards people based on it.<BR/><BR/>Microsoft sells software. There are many, many roles to play in building that software, and very important contributions that come from the people we call PMs and Testers. But the Devs write the code, and the experienced devs write most of it. And the most important parts of it. If those devs come to believe they have no future at the company, they will move on to other employment, and the PMs will be left with incompetent or inexperienced engineers who simply cannot build the products the PMs envision. <BR/><BR/>At that point, the decent PMs will leave out of frustration and the company will indeed be run by "natural born leaders" such as our earlier troll, fighting like jackals with each other over the rotting carcass. <BR/><BR/>Know what you want to sell, know how you make it, reward the people who make it possible. Is that really such a hard concept?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7555958.post-1155274339540420822006-08-10T22:32:00.000-07:002006-08-10T22:32:00.000-07:00On a completely different topic, our SVP just push...<I>On a completely different topic, our SVP just pushed down a <B>CURVE on Commitment Ratings </B> for our review model, contrary to everything being touted about myMicrosoft.</I><BR/><BR/>Please raise your hand if you're truly shocked by this.<BR/><BR/>Anyone?<BR/><BR/>Didn't think so.<BR/><BR/>I think the SVP had two choices: 1) Give lots of people "exceeded", which makes them feel better about the work they do, but a small raise<BR/>2) Give more people an <BR/>"acceptable" that will go together well with the incredibly tiny raise the budget allows.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7555958.post-1155217639800914022006-08-10T06:47:00.000-07:002006-08-10T06:47:00.000-07:00Mr. Sinosfky writes an elucidating piece on Micros...Mr. Sinosfky writes an elucidating piece on Microsoft's unique implementation of program management. Insofar as his elaboration goes on the generalities of why program management is good and the problems it solves, it is informative. <BR/><BR/>However, program management is hardly unique, not even in the software industry. PM was born of the matrix organizations in the aerospace industry in the '60s and '70s, and was adapted long ago by Microsoft's various competitors. They just haven't elevated it to the level of prominence that Microsoft has. But what makes Microsoft's implementation of PM unique is placing the "specification" responsibility on the PM, rather than on engineering. There is another anomally noted by another poster I'll touch on in a moment. <BR/><BR/>Mr. Sinofsky is certainly correct in that specification of features, functionality, interfaces, etc. must be planned out in detail and then implemented and tested, and someone needs to coordinate this across organizations. In the successful product development efforts I have witnessed that role is performed by an engineering development manager. The dev manager is tasked with producing a spec that satisfies marketing's function and feature set, and is technically feasible to implement within the engineering budget & schedule allocated. If not done by the dev manager himself, a PM-like person is usually staff to the dev manager to perform the coordination, communication, status tracking and facilitate status meetings and follow up on action items and problem resolution.<BR/><BR/>But unlike Microsoft, this PM responsibilty is part of (hired by and reports into) the engineering group, not marketing or some generic PM org/silo. The engineering manager is tasked and measured on keeping marketing, customer support, sales support, finance, etc all satisfied that their various inputs/requirements are being met. Succssful software product development is essentially (if not purely) a programming effort and those programming skills (commensurate with developing quality products) are in the engineering development staff. When tradeoffs are to be made or problems to be avoided, it is essentially programming experience and judgement - the more senior and seasoned the better, but programming experience, not management experience.<BR/><BR/>Which brings me to the anomaly noted by another poster:<BR/><BR/><I>The problem with the way the majority of the MS teams run is that they are not teams, they are jammed together groups of devs, pms, and testers. Each discipline has their own charter, their own goals, and is rated towards those goals rather then the success of the overall team. <BR/><BR/>There's a ton of "not my job" going on. My job is to write the code, not to make sure it works. My job is to test it, not to work directly with customers. My job is to write the specs, even if they can't be implemented.<BR/><BR/>Anybody arguing for the primacy of one discipline over the other is part of the problem.<BR/><BR/>Let me clue you in. If your product is late, too slow, doesn't meet customer needs, or gets bad review, it's *your* fault.</I><BR/><BR/>I wholeheartedly agree.<BR/><BR/>Again, in the successful development efforts I've seen, the difference from Microsoft is that the engineering manager owns the responsiblity and authority to deliver. It is his/her fault when that doesn't happen. It is his/her fault if marketing's feature set is shaved at the last minute. It is his/her fault if the product is buggy. It is his/her fault if the product is poorly documented, slow, bloated, unfriendly, late, costly, etc. yada yada yada...<BR/><BR/>The engineering development manager was given the resources to plan, develop, and ship the product and the authority to make the judgement calls along the way. They are also expected to keep their marketing, finance, support peers in the loop as the development effort progresses and the product content/schedule naturally changes (nothing is perfectly planned) but there is no excuse for surprises.<BR/><BR/>Program management aides the engineering development manager and normally, for large projects, one or more PM people report to the engineering development manager in this regard.<BR/><BR/>Again, in the successful development efforts I've seen, engineering is responsible for quality. The QA people may report into a different org, but their job is to find development's mistakes and development is also tasked with the job of making that easy as well as fixing bugs reported. *Engineering* means designing products that can be tested easily (as well as maintained and enhanced later). Testability is as critical a feature as any and needs to be designed-in from the start. If designed properly, the testing can be almost entirely automated, with test suites to be written by QA folk based on product specs as well as their experience.<BR/><BR/>The point of all the above is that project management as Mr. Sinofsky describes is indeed critical, but ownership of the resources, responsibility and authority to deliver the product even moreso, and the skills Mr. Sinofsky cites in a good PM are indeed necessary, but not sufficient. As product development is largely a technical problem, the PM issues at bottom <BR/>are largely technical in nature, their solutions consequently technical and the experience necessary to select correctly from a number of arcanely complex competing "solutions" is largely technical.<BR/><BR/>The distinction I'm drawing is that, yes the PM job nees to be done as Mr. Sinofsky describes, but it is a job that needs to be done from engineering, with engineering commensurately resourced and tasked to satisfy the aggregate requirements from other organizations.<BR/><BR/>If I had to "pinpoint" Microsoft's mistakes in this regard, I'd pick two:<BR/><BR/>1) Responsibility and authority to deliver a product is dispersed across the organization. The PM has responsibility to pull everyone together, but no authority. That works when exceptional people rise above their differences, but it doesn't work in general for average people, from which average people companies of 70,000 are composed. Yes, it's supposed to be cooperative teamwork, but teams still have captains or quarterbacks who call the plays, sideline (and armchair) coaching excepted. <BR/><BR/>2) Were one to casually browse <A HREF="http://members.microsoft.com/careers/search/default.aspx" REL="nofollow">Search Jobs - Microsoft Careers</A> listings for program, project, product and devlopment managers, one can't help but note an appalling overlap of responsibility to "drive" design and direction with an even more appalling lack of responsibility to set budgets and staffing levels normally commensurate with the responsibility to "drive". Even more noteworthy is the absolute absence of any metrics the successful candidate ought to have in terms of skill and experience, for example 'managed annual budgets in excess of $1M and teams of 10 people or more and products of over 500 KLOC'.<BR/><BR/>Is it any wonder the people 'driving' Microsoft offerings are always stepping each others toes and yet don't seem to have more than a few years 'driving' and seemingly with little prior experience at budgeting, staffing, and leading?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7555958.post-1155216885488658812006-08-10T06:34:00.000-07:002006-08-10T06:34:00.000-07:00I\'m tired of all this praise for Kai-fu and XD by...I\'m tired of all this praise for Kai-fu and XD by people who obviously have never worked with either of them. <BR/><BR/>Wow, why did you sue Google if Kai-Fu Lee is so bad? Do you have any better known speech expert than XD?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7555958.post-1155192830194633792006-08-09T23:53:00.000-07:002006-08-09T23:53:00.000-07:00Of course, Sinofsky's words tend to favor PMs. He...Of course, Sinofsky's words tend to favor PMs. He had this to say about himself:<BR/><BR/>"I think that was a good move for me because while I like to think I was competent at development, I was probably never going to hit it out of the park with my ability to write code, but I think what I wasn’t able to do in writing code I made up for with the skills required of a program manager :-)"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7555958.post-1155178812456895042006-08-09T20:00:00.000-07:002006-08-09T20:00:00.000-07:00These are the words from our leader Steven Sinofsk...These are the words from our leader Steven Sinofsky. It shows PMs dont have limit to their potential where as dev has limit. How many UI controls can one write?<BR/><BR/><BR/>Up front I would say that the PM role at Microsoft is both unique and one that has unlimited potential -- it is PMs that can bring together a team and rally them around a new idea and bring it to market (like OneNote, InfoPath). It is PMs that can tackle a business problem and work with marketing and sales to really solve a big customer issue with unique and innovative software (like SharePoint Portal Server). It is PMs that can take a technology like XML or graphics and turn it into an end-user feature benefitting 400 million people (Office Open XML format or the new graphics functionality in Office12). I could go on and paint a very emotional picture, but let's spend some time digging into the more analytical aspects of the job.<BR/><BR/>Where developers were focused on code, architecture, performance, and engineering, the PM would focus on the big picture of "what are we trying to do" and on the details of the user experience, the feature set, the way the product will get used. In fact the job has matured significantly and it is almost impossible to document a complete list of the responsibilities of program managementAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7555958.post-1155172313808775412006-08-09T18:11:00.000-07:002006-08-09T18:11:00.000-07:00>PMs are natural born leaders (even the fresh outt...>PMs are natural born leaders (even the fresh outta college ones), who lead by influence and not by hierarchical management. <BR/><BR/>I would find that more credible if I hadn't just spent the last few years watching PMs spec out ill thought out products slammed together under the excuse of time-to-market pressure that none of our cusotmers seems in any hurry to buy.<BR/><BR/>Most non-technical PMs are as replaceable as paperclips and serve a similar purpose: to keep the paperwork from getting out of hand for the people who are doing real work. The good ones serve as liasons between the team and the rest of the organization and dedicate themselves to making things run smoothly. The bad ones operate under the delusion that the project is their own personal fiefdom for them to display their own self-aggrandizing achievements, like dubious innovations or completion on unrealistically short schedules.<BR/><BR/>>No doubt most of the Devs posting here are the low level 59 - 61s...<BR/><BR/>If it comforts you to believe this, you may continue to do so. Personally, though, there is a <A HREF="http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=package+%22how+efficient+of+you%22&FORM=QBRE" REL="nofollow">quote</A> that seems rather appropriate here.<BR/><BR/>Now, if you'll excuse me, I have some appointments to kidney punch each of the "natural leaders" who blithely assured me two years ago that neither Longhorn support nor 64 bit support would ever be an issue for our product.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7555958.post-1155145714553310812006-08-09T10:48:00.000-07:002006-08-09T10:48:00.000-07:00I spent 5 years in devdiv as a SDE and SDE lead, 3...I spent 5 years in devdiv as a SDE and SDE lead, 3 years as a PM, and now a couple years as a Dev, so I think I can offer some perspective on the different disciplines.<BR/><BR/>But I'm not going to. <BR/><BR/>Sure, I can tell you which job I found harder, but I think that's besides the point.<BR/><BR/>The problem with the way the majority of the MS teams run is that they are not teams, they are jammed together groups of devs, pms, and testers. Each discipline has their own charter, their own goals, and is rated towards those goals rather then the success of the overall team.<BR/><BR/>There's a ton of "not my job" going on. My job is to write the code, not to make sure it works. My job is to test it, not to work directly with customers. My job is to write the specs, even if they can't be implemented.<BR/><BR/>Anybody arguing for the primacy of one discipline over the other is part of the problem. <BR/><BR/>Let me clue you in. If your product is late, too slow, doesn't meet customer needs, or gets bad review, it's *your* fault. <BR/><BR/>Get off your high horse, figure out what the customer really needs, then work as a team to build it and ship it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7555958.post-1155141724100997032006-08-09T09:42:00.000-07:002006-08-09T09:42:00.000-07:00Mark my words, "natural leader", when it will come...<I>Mark my words, "natural leader", when it will come to pink slips (and it will), you, "leaders", will receive the first round.</I><BR/><BR/>Thereby showing that they are leaders by leading the way out the door...<BR/><BR/>(Sorry, couldn't resist.)<BR/><BR/>I actually think that the "natural leader" post was just a well-done troll. If not...<BR/><BR/>Leaders lead by getting people to want to go where the leader thinks that they need to go. "I'm the leader, because I'm a natural leader, whether you realize it or not" means that you're <I>not</I> a leader. All the pride and arrogance does is make you act like a jerk - and your post shows it. It certainly doesn't make people want to go where you want them to go. If anything, it makes them want to sabotage you, just as a way of sticking an upraised middle finger into your assumed superiority.<BR/><BR/>Harsh words, but I'm genuinely tring to help you see what your attitude really does. If you actually have any genuine leadership ability, the arrogance strangles it. <BR/><BR/>That's assuming that the post wasn't a troll. If it was, my compliments on a really well-done one.<BR/><BR/>MSSAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7555958.post-1155112063699143702006-08-09T01:27:00.000-07:002006-08-09T01:27:00.000-07:00>> Still everyone knows who the unofficial leader ...>> Still everyone knows who the unofficial leader of the business is. It is the PM.<BR/><BR/>This is so ridiculous, I don't know how to reply even. Mark my words, "natural leader", when it will come to pink slips (and it will), you, "leaders", will receive the first round.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com