No Layoffs at Microsoft, and a Round-up of other Recent Comments
NO LAYOFFS: first, I think it's fair to give some time to comments in the last post that wanted to absolutely dismiss any sort of Microsoft layoff rumor, starting off from one from 12/28/2008 (various comments edited to be condensed a bit):
NO LAYOFFS @microsoft
Yes, Executives are looking for measures to cut cost. And that can be done without any layoffs. Current hiring rate is slow at MS and considering the natural attrition, we will have lesser workforce at the end of FY09.
We are not immune to recession and our bottom line will see a hit for few quarters. We expect a full recovery by FY10 Q3. We are very optimistic that this recession is an opportunity for us and we will play our cards well. Urge all Microsoft employees to stay focus and keep doing the great work. You will hear more from SteveB soon on his plans. Thank you !!
and another from 12/27/2008:
For the last time folks -- THERE ARE NO LAYOFFS HAPPENINGS IN JANUARY..[...] beyond Jan...well we dont have a crystal ball -- but if the economy doesnt improve and the company misses targets -- it would get uglier for everyone -- from no raises/no bonuses to {maybe}cutbacks/layoffs... but then, those are the rules of the game in corporate America..
so for now -- enjoy your holidays, have a new year blast and then get back and work your ass off in the coming months --- for the overwhleming majority of you there -- things would be just fine!!!! PLEASE DONT PANIC!
From 12/23/2008, a more likely scenario that feels like a layoff but gives corporate cover:
MS will not do straight layoff. It will re-org, and cut groups/projects. Say 2000 FTE are given 4 weeks to land a new job within MS, I bet 1500 will find nothing and will be forced to leave. So no layoff, let's call it "reorg-off" and MS can even save layoff package.
In-line with that, from 12/21/2008, bringing up an interesting point about H1Bs:
[T]his company simply could not go through a round of layoff (mind you I did not say a RIF, as we've all seen those) but the H1-B rules would force all of the cheap labor to be shown the door first, regardless of ranking. And Microsoft lives for ranking. Microsoft wakes up in the morning and get an enormous boner over rankings. So don't suggest for a second that there is some dismal, far reaching lay off coming down the river. Microsoft would never give up the chance to use selecting RIF'ing to demote the lowly ranked. If anything there will be selective investments, as has been stated time and time again. But no, Microsoft will not be showing the H1-B employees the door. Never going to happen, in my opinion.
When is a layoff not a layoff: which teams are at risk to re-orgs / cut-backs / RIF'ing? This comment from 12/29/2008 talks about Entertainment and Devices:
We (E&D management) had a meeting with Ballmer around eight-weeks ago. Ballmer discussed the GE approach to laying off the bottom 10% every year. When asked how Wall Street would respond to our layoffs, he said they would be happy.
We will be handing out a list of names to teams within E&D. This list will contain the 20% / Exceeded from the last review period. Teams will cherry pick who they want.
The original plan was to announce the layoff prior to Christmas. When we notified the [governor], we were asked to hold off until after the holidays.
Other things going on (from 12/27/2008):
- Several big customers have not renewed SAs. This isn't just Vista, but also Exchange and other major revenue-generating products. Several contracts are going from being in the top-5 to zero. 2009 Q1 and Q2 are going to be horrific.
- The whole worldwide economy is in a major slump. Toyota is losing money, for crying out loud. Microsoft leadership is working very hard to avoid mass layoffs -- unlike many other software companies that are cutting even if they don't have to. There's lots of creative thinking going into finding ways to cut costs without harming employees.
- One of the more likely solutions to be employed is no bonuses in 2009 reviews. What are you going to do, quit?
- Hiring is way, way down. Except for a scattered few positions here and there (SQL Server, Live Services, Search, etc.), Microsoft has almost no openings for external hires.
From 12/24/2008:
One of the "rumors" I've heard around the watercooler is that we are looking at a 10% layoff, and part of those heads will come from the open headcount that is out there.
I'm on one of the teams that are still caught in the middle of a re-org that keeps getting postponed and our Director has told his direct reports to start looking for other positions. Outside of that, nothing has funneled down to the individual teams.
Contractors are being dropped (from 12/22/2008):
I have been asked to let go of two of my contractors end of the month even though they have a month remaining in their contracts. Funny because on Dec 1 we were talking of renewing their contracts. Something big seems to have happened in the past couple of weeks, I suppose. However I still see our Director of Development hanging on in the team despite having no work. He was removed from the team about 6 weeks back and has no one reporting to him or no say in the product.
Regarding what's going on the the Field (12/22/2008):
Thanks to the wonderful mergers in the financial world…Technical Account Managers at Merrill Lynch, Wachovia, and Morgan Stanley were kicked out of those accounts. In central region the automakers basically kicked every Microsoft rep/engineer/consulting out till Mid 2009. And let’s talk about the rest of the field…ya know the people who support our customers and our products….people in Premier/Consulting/DPE. As our customers are cutting back our PFEs and consulting FTE’s have been forced to fight with each other on getting meager engagements with customers. Services management was talking as recently as August about hiring upwards of 2000 in FY08. Now with so many people sitting on the bench and not engaged at customers…is it the fault of the services employees or Corp’s fault for over hiring? There have been several internal calls within the last week where RIF planning was discussed.
Comment from 12/22/2008 regarding Microsoft Advertising:
Rumor confirmed from Microsoft Advertising. There are several areas within the organization that I can confirm an upcoming "reorg." Leaders of undisclosed groups have been asked to represent materials around their groups' long term plans and feasibility. I think this one is going to be big, hopefully they just cut the fat. There is plenty of it from my experience.
On cost-cutting:
Groups everywhere are being forced to cut costs - but good thing the Zune guys had a nice holiday party. At least they're profitable so they can cover the costs... oh wait. Probably cost as much as the annual salary of a couple L60-61s
And to the commenter about Robbie's group being on a hiring freeze for awhile - true, but the only reason they got there is because of "crazy hiring"... 800+ people in Zune alone?
Teams not at risk? Office seems to be at the top of that pile. OfficeGuy writes on 12/29/2008:
Layoffs: Office and Windows are unlikely to reorg/lay people off in the near future and are [relatively] safe - we need to ship a high quality product soon (and we will this time, no doubt), so losing even the bottom 10% or whatever could have a negative effect on these two cash cows (and it is too late to replace the fat with new blood this late in the cycle). Having spent a few years in Office I can say that this org is huge but I haven't seen real slackers or dumb useless people (maybe I'm just lucky). By looking at my team that has a lot of junior developers/college hires, I'd hate to lose even the bottom 10% - all these folks do try hard and the team is really respectable in Office.
Office again (from 12/22/2008):
College recruiting (at least in Office) is still firing on all cylinders - managers are being told that there will be a seat ready for every great college candidate we want to hire. The pool of highly qualified grads desperate for a job is as deep as it's ever been in recent years.
So if that is true, I'm skeptical that MSFT will announce anything that even remotely sounds like layoffs. Can you imagine the lawsuits if people are ushered out one door with a pink slip while fresh college grads walk in the other door?
Instead we'll see tightening of performance standards and aggressive managing-out of the low performers. The last thing anyone is going to call it is "layoffs"...
One commenter from 12/22/2008 warns:
Don't assume that firing 10%'ers == 10% cost cutting - it doesn't. To reduce salary costs approx 10% requires cuts into the bottom of the 70% bucket too.
January 15th: so do I think anything is going to happen January 15th? Well, it is after CES (we certainly don't want any bad news before that - though look carefully at the groups there and not there) and before quarterly results (no bad surprises delivered with results - check). But after the rather alarming attention the previous rumor-driven post got, even if something was going to happen January 15th I'd completely expect that's off the table now. Sorry, Oppenheimer & Co.
Gossip Grrrls: did I hear any solid facts during all the snow parties I slushed around at during the Christmas holidays? Nope. Just still a bunch of second hand rumors, probably filtered through people's own agendas and likes and dislikes. Stuff like:
- Pffft, layoffs, come on! That jerk-ass blogger. Don't-worry-about-it, it's just the loss of open headcount and no backfill for attrition.
- It's not just the bottom 10% being moved on but also folks in the lower Achieved/70% range (like people who worked themselves up from 10% or are on the way down to 10%). A commenter above had the same observation.
- Some products and some teams are just gone.
- Note that we've read a lot of comments about Entertainment and Devices and Server and Tools. All the gossip I hear swirls around them.
- Prototype, redundant, and pie-in-the-sky teams are going to be re-org'd into everyday meat-and-potato teams. We're going to have a bunch of spare code names soon.
- It's a layoff masked as rhythm-of-business reorganization plus performance management plus Not To Exceed staffing budgets being strictly enforced.
That last point is interesting around labor laws that I don't begin to know anything about, laws like when a layoff comes that the H1B hires are supposed to be the first to be let go and the Working Adjustment and Retraining Act one commenter brought up. If this is a stealth layoff due to a lot of RIF'ing and those people leave because there are no matching open positions, does Microsoft have legal cover against this being an honest to goodness "layoff?"
I think a requirement like having to shed all the H1B hires absolutely nullifies Microsoft doing a classic layoff. We just wouldn't let go of those people.
Oh, and in closing, the following question came in with a comment from 12/27/2008:
Mini - the entire premise of your blog is that MSFT needs to reduce in size, be more efficient, be more cost-effective. While the reason is not the ideal one (forced upon MSFT by outside economy, rather than developed as part of smart strategy), the end result will be the same. If MSFT is a capable company at its core at all, it will survive, evolve and thrive.
If there truly is a round of layoffs, and MSFT ends up becoming the leaner, meaner, smarter, more innovative company you wanted... shouldn't you be ecstatic?
It's a pretty tempered ecstasy. Yes, I want a smaller Microsoft because I believe that Microsoft has exploded in size for no good reason. Going back to 2004. Even with the continued hiring binge since I started this blog, I had a small glimmer of hope that reason would be seen and discipline enacted to hire a limited set of high caliber contributors - and flush out the employees who are better suited working elsewhere. That never happened. And now we're in a, "golly-gee-wilikers the cash ain't coming in like it was and we've done gone and hired all these people! Yeep! How'd that happen?!?" mode.
In a year, when this all passes, we'll be back to hiring like crazy, learning nothing. Unless the leaders at Microsoft that run tight, well managed organizations can step up during this time and flush out the binge-hirers. There's my little glimmer.
(Edit: put in links to the appropriate sources for the comments I quoted above.)
553 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 553 of 553People who have never shipped a product should go.
People who hired people who never shipped a product should go.
People who hired the people who hired the people who never shipped a product should go.
Then again, the world is Steve Balmer's Etch-a-Sketch and maybe he's not done trying to draw a straight line with Microsoft's stock price.
MSFT Chart
According to the New York Times, the last layoffs were in 1996 when thousands of 3.5" floppies were let go...
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A06E3DC1039F932A25750C0A960958260&sec=&spon=&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink
Reuters now
I guess MSFT is planning on layoff they should have denied if anything at all.
It appears very normal at work, nothing sneaky unless HR has been informed with the list already.
Confirmed today morning. No layoffs(or any RIF via re-orgs) in Search, Windows, Office, OSB, E&D.
However, except hiring freezes and cost-cutting (no morale events for a while).
Many groups still have open headcounts for Vendors
Someone lied to you or you're talking directly out of your ass. My entire product unit was just shot in the head.
"My entire product unit was just shot in the head."
Which product unit please?
My entire product unit was just shot in the head.
Which product unit?
>> MSFT could easily lose 20K FTE and not miss a beat.
Really? With morale in the shitter and the ever-looming possibility that you're next? After punishing folks for other's poor hiring decisions with arbitrary layoffs, the company will never be the same again. Never.
> Someone lied to you or you're talking directly out of your ass. My entire product unit was just shot in the head.
looks like liar vs. liar to me
> Reuters now
Yeah and WSJ. But it's nothing new. It's all the same crap that's been circulating around the interwebs for the last couple weeks.
I heard live meeting product unit got canned, is it true? did they gave 6 weeks to find a job or merged into another teams?
"Someone lied to you or you're talking directly out of your ass. My entire product unit was just shot in the head."
And what group was that?
Just when I thought I was safe if I lasted past tomorrow, now the rumor is these are happening "as early as next week".
Let the axe fall and be done with it already.
As bad as our management has been, I cannot believe they would allow rumors like this to persist for weeks and completely destroy morale.
Lisa has really failed here. I cannot wait for the next MS Poll. Our morale numbers are going to track like the stock price over the last few years.
Just looking at the comments make me feel proud, People are really passionate :) ... Layoffs or no lay offs even if 50% of the poster on this blog stay back MSFT is a fun place to be in.
-oushab
I cannot believe they would allow rumors like this to persist for weeks and completely destroy morale.
Even worse, I know of at least one product group that recently sent out an "everyone is doing a great job" email that clearly states they are still hiring. If they end up making cuts (which is starting to sound likely), moral will really take a hit.
Re: Losing 20K @ MSFT and not missing a beat...
Yep, +1 on that count. We all know that there are resters and vesters, there are people that are just justifying their existence, useless internal marketing roles, duplicate positions, etc. Add all that up (once you find it) and you won't miss them at all. Now, has Lisa failed here...yep. She and other execs have not managed this leak, nor have they managed (nor will they) to find those people above to get rid of them. And so, yeah, at this point, they'll cut, but not all the right people, and clearly after having mismanaged the news and trashing morale, things will be worse. Not because we couldn't affort to lose 20K, but because after all this suffering, it'll just sting a bit more.
Layoffs will be rolled out on Jan 22nd ....
I keep wondering what a formal layoff (not a re-org/set of quiet RIFs approach) with lots of PR would do for our stock price. Nothing else has seemed to help move it in a positive direction.
Which product unit please?
parts of Zune
Which product unit please?
parts of Zune
----
part of Zune goes to Mobile
In Windows Fundamentals, management doesn't seem to know anything about layoffs. Of course, that may mean management is on the chopping block.
It is a shame that those of us in test are blamed for failures in Zune. If Zune is anything like Vista was, the testers were shouting at the PM's and Dev's to take the failures seriously.
Nobody listened.
To all people thinking this will show in MS Poll, it wont. Do you really think anyone looks at the comments, ever? Yeah, in your group prehaps. But on divisional or subsidiary level? Nah. So, what´ll happen is that people will say MS has become a shitty place to work and its due poor drive by management and Lisas interpretation will be to explain to the board and SLT that "of course the employees are dissatisfied as their friends have been laid off". You see, not once at Microsoft have I seen a manager be accountable and take personal responsibility. Not Robbie in the Xbox scandal that cost the company $bn´s, not Steveb for the poor hiring of the Orlandos, Yusufs etc of the world - none. Frankly, our senior mgmt culture is crap - all the way from subsidiaries to the top in Redmond. It started years ago and to me, it ended when Kevin Turner told the subsidiary leaders of the world that "Microsofts core strength is its operational excellence". Gee, I thought it was our products. And even if its not the products, how can anyone be so visually impaired that he or she does not notice Microsofts internal BI/Finance and Mgmt tool do not interrelate, do not report relevant data and are not build on Microsoft products? Well, our own stone cold texian man with the plan and the upper lip facial hair obviously does. My advice: Sack no one, make a new phony rock video with Kevin T, Steve B and the Windows Vista sales team. To quote the texian: "It rocks"...
i am a manager of managers and was just told that three people in my team are being RIFd. My broader team is losing about 12% of total headcount. 10% and low performers in general, but my manager says its deeper in some areas where our VP & GM have agreed there's less value. RIF to happen on 1/22 with "training" for affected managers on 1/21. Everyone will get 60 days notice, with opportunity to find new job, though widespread hiring freezes will obviously make that hard for most.
"Which product unit please?
parts of Zune"
I'm the OP, and while I don't yet feel comfortable revealing where I come from, it's not Zune and the announcement will be public by the beginning of next week.
I'm trying to line-up informationals but it's ugly out there even for those of us with strong performance history.
These are tough times!
2 questions:
1) if you end up getting re-org'd and given a 6 week notice to find another job in MS, do you still get a severence package if you don't end up finding something in 6 weeks?
2) is the standard ms severence package 2 weeks for every 6 months service or 2 weeks for every 1 year of service?
As a former long-timer MSer I can say there is certainly at least 10% of poor-performing "waste" among the ranks of MS who should go. There are also another 10% of people whose work or management style is so detrimental to the org that they do more harm than good and they too should go.
That said, I think a company with the resources of MS should buckle up and take the high road in an economy like this and avoid layoffs for a while for the good of the economy. They can afford it and they can, and should, let these people go a year from now, or whenever the economy starts to rebound. But letting 4,000-15,000 people go today would have an unconscionable negative effect on the local economies where MS has a significant presence.
"People who have never shipped a product should go.
People who hired people who never shipped a product should go.
People who hired the people who hired the people who never shipped a product should go."
What a silly comment. So I guess all the people who sell, deploy, and support the products that you "ship" should all be waiting for pink slips?
Folks in Redmond need to get the message that there is a whole lot of Microsoft outside of Puget Sound, and many people who have been with the company for many years performing vital roles that have nothing to do with writing code.
yeah, not much happened today the big 15th, cept my whole org being moved under sinofsky. [b]crap[/b]. what izzat gonna mean.
I don't know who told Mini that there were no layoffs coming, but they snowed him nicely.
Headtrax shows a cut of 30,000 contractors and vendors since 2 months ago. 10,000 of those cuts have occured since the 31st. That's a pretty big savings right there... $4B?
And as far as the "layoffs" go? They're RIFs, and they are for real folks. You can kid yourselves all you want, but they are coming just like they did in '01 (of course most of you weren't at the company then, since there were only 35k employees then and not 95k).
Start networking and making contacts now, because you're going to have to fight for a job... and it's the 10%-ers who are getting marked. OSB/MSN is going to feel it as are other areas.
It is a shame that those of us in test are blamed for failures in Zune. If Zune is anything like Vista was, the testers were shouting at the PM's and Dev's to take the failures seriously.
Nobody listened.
At least in the case of the devs, you are right.
i am a manager of managers and was just told that three people in my team are being RIFd. My broader team is losing about 12% of total headcount. 10% and low performers in general, but my manager says its deeper in some areas where our VP & GM have agreed there's less value. RIF to happen on 1/22 with "training" for affected managers on 1/21. Everyone will get 60 days notice, with opportunity to find new job, though widespread hiring freezes will obviously make that hard for most.
When will the affected parties know if they are Rifed or not?
on 22nd? what do they do for next 6 0 days?
It is a shame that those of us in test are blamed for failures in Zune. If Zune is anything like Vista was, the testers were shouting at the PM's and Dev's to take the failures seriously.
Nobody listened.
At least in the case of the devs, you are right.
It is pretty obvious that this doesn't apply across the board. A lot of us devs pushed hard, a lot of PMs pushed hard, and a lot of test pushed hard, and a lot of management pushed hard to do the right things.
Sadly not everybody pushed hard. It's just that simple.
"I don't know who told Mini that there were no layoffs coming, but they snowed him nicely.
Headtrax shows a cut of 30,000 contractors and vendors since 2 months ago."
So?
Contractors and vendors are not MSFT employees. They are employees of Volt, or self-employed. Layoff = firing of full time employees, in order to save the company money.
I think we have hit bottom in the economy. All the fear and negativity has been taken into account in the stock market. We had a good rebound today. It will be silly for Microsoft to layoff now.
Does anyone what kind of severance package one can expect. I have been with the company 3 years.
"So?
Contractors and vendors are not MSFT employees. They are employees of Volt, or self-employed. Layoff = firing of full time employees, in order to save the company money."
There will be substantial RIFs in addition to these cuts. The contractors are the easiest to fire and the first to go due to employment laws, severance requirements, budgets, etc. The idea is that you cut variable costs before you cut fixed costs that are hard to replace.
> Does anyone what kind of
> severance package one can expect.
I think no one knows because Microsoft has never done any mass layoff before.
It seems even employess at bankrupt companies like Wamu get something (2 months of pay if I remember correctly what I read).
I believe 6 months is pretty common in the tech industry but I don't have any hard data. If anyone knows what laid off employees at Sun and Yahoo got, could they please post it?
FWIW companies like to do layoffs on a Friday just before the weekend to keep the weekend as a buffer for all emotions etc...
To managers/ managers of managers.
What kind of severance package can a full-time employee who is being laid off/RIFed expect beyond the 60 day period? (Will there be any such package at all?)
I think we have hit bottom in the economy. All the fear and negativity has been taken into account in the stock market. We had a good rebound today. It will be silly for Microsoft to layoff now.
Since when is it sound to equate "the stock market" with "the economy"?
You honestly believe we're seeing the bottom of this recession now, barely half way through January 2009, given all the predictions of massive store closures, loan defaults, unemployment, foreclosures, etc... to come?
Look again... that cup may not be half full, my optimistic friend.
Talked to a friend. He told me that the norm is to pay 2 weeks of pay per year that the employee has worked (this is what Sun MicroSystems paid, when it laid off people). So if someone worked for 3.5 years, he should get7 weeks of pay in severance.
I believe 6 months is pretty common in the tech industry but I don't have any hard data. If anyone knows what laid off employees at Sun and Yahoo got, could they please post it?
I know the info for Intel. It is 2 months base + 4 weeks pay for every year of service.
If you work for 10 years, you get 12 months pay.
> FWIW companies like to do layoffs on a Friday just before the weekend to keep the weekend as a buffer for all emotions etc...
This is very true...I've been laid off twice in my life and it was always on a Friday. I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't hear anything today though.
For those who fear the coming layoffs,there are still many MSN teams with plenty of open headcount (10 - 25 even after hiring freeze).
It seems even employess at bankrupt companies like Wamu get something (2 months of pay if I remember correctly what I read).
As far as I remember from dot com days, if a large company is laying off more than 500 workers, then they employer must follow the rules under the US Department of Labor's WARN act. Under that, workers get 60 days of notice and several other provisions. Google "WARN Act" for the details.
The part I'm not clear about is whether a "RIF" qualifies as a "Layoff."
--If yes, then laid off workers get WARN act provisions and Microsoft must report the action as a formal layoff
--If not, then workers get whatever Microsoft's internal RIF provisions are, and Microsoft can just say that there was a simple re-org, and not a formal layoff.
>> Does anyone what kind of
>> severance package one can expect.
>I believe 6 months is pretty common in the
>tech industry but I don't have any hard data.
>If anyone knows what laid off employees at
>Sun and Yahoo got, could they please post it?
During the early Carly years at HP, the severance package was 2 weeks for every year of employment, with a minimum of 3 months, maximum 12 months. Hurd has since whittled that down. Last I checked, it's 1 week for every year of service with no minimum (this may have been further reduced in the past few months...I stopped keeping tabs).
Keep in mind that the company has no obligation to give you anything when letting you go. You are an at-will employee. Is it a good idea to avoid the bad publicity, morale impacts, etc? Sure, but it is not guaranteed.
"What kind of severance package can a full-time employee who is being laid off/RIFed expect beyond the 60 day period? (Will there be any such package at all?)"
Basically pretty standard stuff... you typically get two package choices.. one is to take the package immediately and terminate from MS vs. a package choice that includes time to find another job within MS and could be less money at the end. They both are usually more than fair and are tenure based in MS but I forget the exact details. I remember once when I was RIF'd, my package choice came down to my stock vesting during the job search period so it made sense to wait and see what I found, allow stock to vest and then leave if i couldnt find anything. Lucky for me, I found multiple jobs and had a pretty good selection to choose from... that was 9 years ago and been smooth sailing across multiple jobs and groups ever since.
I'd argue that being RIF'd or even fired should be a required experience for any senior leader... without going into details, you learn alot about yourself, your tolerance for risk and usually come out the other side mostly better for the experience.
Let's debunk this original bit in the blog post: The original plan was to announce the layoff prior to Christmas. When we notified the [governor], we were asked to hold off until after the holidays.
I've been following the PI thread on the reduction, and OMG looks what happens when an actual journalist like Joe Tartakoff gets involved and does work:
I did call the governor's office. A spokesman said Microsoft has not contacted them, although they would not necessarily be alerted before a lay off announcement.
Commenter: lier.
can someone tell me what is RIF?
If you get laid off for any reason, what happens to your accrued vacation time?
Do H1B and L visa employees working in Redmond qualify for Washington State unemployment insurance if they are laid off?
I know the info for Intel. It is 2 months base + 4 weeks pay for every year of service.
If you work for 10 years, you get 12 months pay.
...
As Stocks no longer pays a penny Really i would take voluntaruly if i was in that position, i bet i can land a job which pays similar to what ms does and learn something new.Will I get unemployment insurance for that period also? that will be ideal for taking a sabatical and start fresh if you have decent savings.
Looks like no WARN has been filed, so no layoffs possible re-orgs, cuts ,rifs ..
In test, our contractor team has been cut by half because of budget.
I guess contractor firing is not considered as layoffs as such
Given that H1B employees are hired to fill a skill gap in the labor pool, what happens when there are mass layoffs?
Do Microsoft policies exist to describe how layoff decisions are determined if an H1B and US citizen are equally qualified for a job?
Do federal or state laws exist to provide protection or preference in layoff situations for US citizens paying US taxes working in US jobs for US employers?
RIF = Reduction in Force
Yes, you get paid for accrued vacation. You do not get paid for unused sick time or floating holidays.
"If you get laid off for any reason, what happens to your accrued vacation time?"
You get paid for the vaction hours you have not used.
>>Do H1B and L visa employees working in Redmond qualify for Washington State unemployment insurance if they are laid off?
Not sure about L visas, but H1 workers do not qualify for unemployment - in fact if the job goes away, they have to return to their country of origin within unless another position can be found and H1 transferred.
Microsoft (China) Sued for Illegal Layoff
http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/2116783/
"Do H1B and L visa employees working in Redmond qualify for Washington State unemployment insurance if they are laid off?"
Are you dreaming? H1Ber will be kicked out this country once you're unemployed. There might be couple of months of grace period so you can find another job and hoping the employer is willing to sponsor for a new H1B. But at this environment, that's just a joke.
Microsoft just sold their stake in Comcast for roughly 2.2 billion.
That could pay for over 11,000 full time employees at a 200K per year cost ... or probably 5 senior VPs. I wonder which they'll opt to keep.
Organizational shift puts Microsoft Live Mesh in Windows Live group.
By Benjamin J. Romano
Seattle Times
Microsoft is doing some organizational shifting inside the Windows and Windows Live groups. Live Mesh, a new service that synchronizes devices and information, has moved from Chief Software Architect Ray Ozzie's organization to the Windows and Windows Live engineering group headed by Steven Sinofsky. Mary Jo Foley first reported the move this morning, which follows information we reported Thursday that some Microsoft employees were bracing for possible organizational changes.
It's not clear whether this is an isolated shift related just to Live Mesh, or the start of a more substantial rejiggering. There were no layoffs as part of the change, according to Foley, who had the information from a Microsoft spokesperson.
The move from Ozzie's org to Sinofsky's may be a signal that the Live Services Platform and Live Mesh, which is now in beta testing, are getting closer to prime time. Here's more background on Live Mesh.
Here's the official statement from Microsoft:
"The Windows Live, Live Services Platform, and Live Mesh teams will now be a part of the unified Windows Live organization under Steven Sinofsky, Senior Vice President, Windows and Windows Live Engineering. David Treadwell, Corporate Vice President, Live Services Platform, will now report to Sinofsky and will continue his work on the Live Services Platform.
"Integrating these three groups under one unified team allows Microsoft to further its commitment to deliver end-users a great set of Windows Live offerings and support all of the applications and services that use the Live Services Platform. As well as, continue to invest in Live Mesh as a consumer experience and a core platform technology of the Live Services Platform for both Microsoft offerings and 3rd party partners and developers."
Well, if I get layed off I intend to see a labor lawyer and sue Microsoft. My group is full of H1-Bs and if they are around I get cut I am going to raise holy hell. I would be willing to take a cut down a level or two to keep my job.
Could anyone recommend a good labor attorney in the Seattle area?
MS has numerous L visa holders in management positions based in the US who presumably make layoff decisions for US citizen subordinates working in US offices.
Seems that the visa restrictions in layoffs have very sad, draconian consequences for non-US citizens and their families working on L and H1B visas.
Given this situation, does Microsoft have company policies to factor citizenship into termination /layoff decisions of equally qualified employees? Do laws exist to factor citizenship into layoff actions?
>>US citizens paying US taxes working in US jobs for US employers?
FYI - H1B folk pay US taxes working in US jobs for US employers too. But they don't get all of the benefits those taxes pay for.
>>Well, if I get layed off I intend to see a labor lawyer and sue Microsoft. My group is full of H1-Bs and if they are around I get cut I am going to raise holy hell.
Unfortunately, I think that you'll find this is not illegal. If it came to it, the job description would mysteriously fit only that person whose job you feel should be yours, and not you.
Given this situation, does Microsoft have company policies to factor citizenship into termination /layoff decisions of equally qualified employees? Do laws exist to factor citizenship into layoff actions?
No. There is no requirement for any kind of compensation if you get laid off, no severance, no nothing. You're right, this is going to be hellish hard on those folks who are on visas and may have recently bought houses and so on.
I don't think that Microsoft does much to warn visa holders of the liabilities that they could incur by buying a house then having to leave the country.
Doing this now, in this climate, in a situation where it isn't an operational necessity, is just plain evil. Wall Street folk will apparently be "dancing like giddy girls". Welcome to Wal-Mart.
If layoffs happen in the next few days, I would recommend that you go out and buy a house sometime in April. Prices will be down 20% and would make a great long term investment.
FWIW companies like to do layoffs on a Friday just before the weekend to keep the weekend as a buffer for all emotions etc...
Typically if Microsoft fires you they tend do it on a Thursday so that the person can file for unemployment on Friday. WRT a layoff/RIF who knows. They will probably do it when they want to do it.
If you get laid off for any reason, what happens to your accrued vacation time?
Yes
As for the package if you are RIF'd. If I remember all the facts correctly from a friend who's team got RIF'd last summer here is what you should expect:
2 weeks pay for every 6 months of employments up to 13 years; which works out to 6 months (plus any vacation). Unless you're somewhere around director level at which point you automatically get 6 months IIRC. Can't remember if they benefit beyond that... don't care I'm not at that level myself.
Some other things to know… If you have the option to job search, you interview, get an offer, and refuse the offer your termination package is null and void. So be prepared to either take the job or call HR asap and remove yourself from consideration so you do not get an offer. Next if you get the package there is a period of time where if you come back to MS (as FTE) you may have to pay back a portion of the separation package.
That's what I know about the separation package offered in most cases.
Let's hope management comes clean soon with an announcement or you all are on drugs we’re not laying off anyone.
I suspect if there is no statement by Thursday the investment community will be drilling management Thursday afternoon during the conference call about it.
Good luck everyone.
Not sure about H1B, but L1 visa holders have just 10 days to leave the country once they lose their job :(
I am in Clidell org (Finance) and was told the following late today by my GM...Steveb will send an email out at 0600PST Thursday 22nd announcing cut backs in investments as well as layoffs. Employees will be notified on this day with Friday being last day.
The town hall at 0900 Friday will be after the fact. No effected employees will be eligible for on site internal search which is typically 6 weeks, and I can only think the #'s are too big to be able to pysically house/accomodate. Neither will they be able to apply for any positions posted internally, only those posted externally. In my group the impacted numbers are 9.
No information was forthcoming on severance packages, however in the past the standard package #1 in the US has been capped at 28 weeks with L64 and below getting 1 week for every 6 mos of service and L65 and over getting 2 weeks for every 6 mos service. Word is getting out to Manager so they can schedule meetings with impacted staff.....
Let's hope management comes clean soon with an announcement or you all are on drugs we’re not laying off anyone.
-------
true ..
i was told "job in jeopardy" in december, then talked to my skip who said work hard for 4-6 weeks and then possible movement can happen, i got told today by a manager in the same division that she was not able to interview me due to the "message" trend...
@anonymous at 8:00 PM
Don't have any experience with labor lawyers myself, but it looks like Redmond has some good ones:
http://www.avvo.com/employment-labor-lawyer/wa/redmond.html
Google "WARN Act" for the details
You should start saying "Live Search 'WARN Act' for the details", unless you want to see more of your co-workers laid off.
Microsoft just sold their stake in Comcast for roughly 2.2 billion.
How much was it worth when we invested? :)
What did we get for our investment?
Are they going to roll out the MS TV product anywhere?
I don't think that Microsoft does much to warn visa holders of the liabilities that they could incur by buying a house then having to leave the country.
What liabilities? Unless you bought a long time ago wouldn't you just mail the keys to the bank and move on? This works for citizens so should work for visa holders.
It's ironic that the same Wall Street Analysts who will be dancing "giddy" in the streets are the same firms causing the problem to begin with... Guess a $700 billion isn't enough.
If these Wall Street firms were smart about using MS software and tools the problem might be mitigiated.
Bad loans don't happen overnight. It's hard to understand why these firms couldn't detect patterns and trends and make informed proactive decisions based on accurate information. Why can't these firms detect fraud - can't they securely track, manage, and share information?
Maybe Microsoft can help.
It's sad that the irresponsibility and greed of these "Wall Street" criminals has such an adverse impact on so many people. Let's hold the right people accountable for the crisis.
Microsoft is filled with hardworking, brilliant people who's diverse knowledge and skill can be the change.
"People who have never shipped a product should go.
People who hired people who never shipped a product should go.
People who hired the people who hired the people who never shipped a product should go."
I work in Sales & Marketing. I've never shipped a product, nor hired anyone who shipped a product. Should I go? Idiot. You think the products sell themselves do you?
>>>>>2 weeks pay for every 6 months of employments up to 13 years; which works out to 6 months (plus any vacation). Unless you're somewhere around director level at which point you automatically get 6 months IIRC.
Hi. It seems that the math in the above comment does not add up. Did you mean that the employee who is RIFed will get 2 weeks of salary for upto 13 years (in which case it would add upto 1 year salary).
Can someone please confirm how many weeks of salary gets paid out for each year of service at MS.
(Personally I'd actually love to get laid off if I get 2-4 weeks of pay for every year of service, since i already have been at MS for more than 5 years)
Hey Coach Mora! I'm going to a party later with girls - should I talk to them about layoffs? Layoffs?! Layoffs?! Don't talk about layoffs! Layoffs?!
""People who have never shipped a product, or hired people who have, should go."" - I work in Sales & Marketing. I've never shipped a product, nor hired anyone who shipped a product. Should I go? Idiot. You think the products sell themselves do you?"
Everyone understands that marketing is part of shipping a product.
If you're so insecure about your standing, either in your own team or generally about marketing's relationship to the company, then you're either in trouble yourself or should be.
We blow ludicrous amount of money on lame marketing campaigns. The company obviously values marketers. It won't be marketers for the core products for the company that go, if anyone is going.
I am in Clidell org (Finance) and was told the following late today by my GM...
Please read past comments before trying to spread lies. Last guy who tried to claim insider knowledge also claimed to be in Lidell's org.
There are no layoffs.
Some groups will be re-orgd and will RIF an odd low performer here or there. Contractors and vendors - not FTEs, hence not actual employees of MSFT - will have their contracts cut short or not renewed. That's it.
Stop giving the mainstream press fodder! Stop contributing to the low stock price (Ballmer does enough damage all by himself)! If you're a MSFTie, get back to work! If you're not, go troll somewhere else!
I would pay cash money to see someone at the upcoming town hall meeting throw a shoe at Ballmer.
Most researchers never shipped a product, should they go too?
Even Yahoo did not fire any researcher!
So with a layoff, what will happen with unvested stock awards? I'm sure there would be a lawsuit if they don't fully vest what has already been awarded since you aren't leaving at will.
Anyone know?
I am in Clidell org (Finance) and was told the following late today by my GM...Steveb will send an email out at 0600PST Thursday 22nd announcing cut backs in investments as well as layoffs. Employees will be notified on this day with Friday being last day
I really hope someting happens soon. Either there be layoffs or no layoffs, so that we can get over this and get back to our jobs. This suspense is just killing everyone.
I am in Clidell org (Finance) and was told the following late today by my GM
I stopped reading your comment when I realized you spelled Liddell's name wrong.
Seems like there is a lot of people trying to stir the pot in these comments at this point, so much so that they don't even bother to check the spelling of the names of people they supposedly work with/for.
I am in Clidell org (Finance) and was told the following late today by my GM...Steveb will send an email out at 0600PST Thursday 22nd announcing cut backs in investments as well as layoffs. Employees will be notified on this day with Friday being last day.
For those of you who keep coming with these stories, might as well get his name right - Chris Liddell. I find it hard to believe someone working in his org, and high enough to know the details of such drastic plans, would not know his how to spell his name...
Also, the cutbacks in investments announcement would come at a pretty poor time given how they will probably strike a deal with Yahoo about their search.
>>>>>2 weeks pay for every 6 months of employments up to 13 years; which works out to 6 months (plus any vacation).
Hi OP from 10:48PM. Sorry about that; you are correct. I was a little groggy and recalling a conversation from 8 months ago. The bottom line is the maximum you can qualify for as a IC under L65 (again I don't know what that cut off is but somewhere around L65 Director etc.) is 6 months of severence pay (Plus unused vaca).
That works out to be 1 week for every 6 months or 2 weeks for every year (up to 13 years. If you've been here 15 years too bad). 13 x 2 equals 26 weeks. 2 x 26 = 52 weeks. OK now that I've showed my work I think I should get full credit for the problem :)
So if the poster in Finance has legit information then it would appear you should be on the lookout for a meeting invitation Wednesday night/Thursday morning.
Hoping for the best.
Peace.
>>>(Personally I'd actually love to get laid off if I get 2-4 weeks of pay for every year of service, since i already have been at MS for more than 5 years)
Why don't you tell this to your lead/manager/PUM? Maybe they will be more than happy to fulfill your request.
Let me first say I'm skeptical there will be massive layoffs. A company the size of Microsoft doesn't go from no history of massive layoffs to a massive layoff overnight when it still has plenty of cash reserves and perceived future opportunity. Massive layoffs happen only when it is obvious that either the growth opportunities have gone away forever (e.g. newspaper publishing business) or the company screwed up (e.g. Yahoo).
Many posters talking about separation packages. If we do have massive layoffs, I don't think we can expect the packages to be similar to what were offered during localized RIFs.
A few posters talked about impact on stock price. Microsoft didn't worry much when it last announced earnings. What was communicated was a relatively minor impact to company earnings. A massive layoff would be the result of something dramatic that transpired in the last couple of months (possible) OR a dramatic shift in strategy. In either case, that would be a big surprise to investors and a surprise on the negative side. I think the stock price will take a hit, or at least loses its potential to go up for a long time (several years).
In the past Wall Street has temporarily rewarded companies that announced massive layoffs. That was only because those companies were already facing shrinking revenues and profits and it was understood that saving costs with a layoff was the only pragmatic alternative. That's not the case for Microsoft, which was on a hiring spree the last 10 years with the express goal of increasing revenues with increased presence in the marketplace. A massive layoff is a 180 degree turn and such big turns scare investors.
Personally I'd actually love to get laid off if I get 2-4 weeks of pay for every year of service, since i already have been at MS for more than 5 years.
We'd all be happy to see you go.
I hope I'm in your interview loop when you try to come back after you're not able to find a job around here after 6+ months.
I am getting a bit tired of these layoff news/rumors that’s been going since mid December because I am not sure if this is really happening or not? 1/15 and 1/16 has come and gone, and now we are saying 1/22 or 1/23?
From the individual and 1st level management performance point, I shouldn't be worried because my reviews scores over the many years @MS have been well above average with multiple Gold Star awards. However, I moved to a new team recently who is not performing well financially and I am worried that the entire team might get RIF'd and with hiring freeze that I won’t be able to find something within 6 weeks.
(I tried an informational back in first week of December before the layoff rumors and even then I was screened for an informational!! The person asked for the review scores and resume before he would even meet with me for a 30 minute informational, due to so many people applying and not enough open positions @ MS)
Within my division there was a team of <100 that was RIF'd late last year (before the actual hiring freeze), so RIFs do happens (silently).
I did hear from a very reliable source in my org that the GM and its direct reports did have an offsite meeting last week to talk about this. But I was told that they are not calling this a layoff, so I am assuming massive companywide layoff is not the plan, but each business unit/divisions were told to meet some kind of bar and they left the decision making to each GM/VP on how they are going to meet the numbers. I am assuming that is why many teams went hiring freeze the last quarter, but I think they are asked to up the bar further, which means you have to find other ways besides just stop hiring.
It is really annoying that Steve and Lisa are not stepping up and saying the rumors are false to calm the people down. I am assuming this means it probably is true to some extend?
Does anyone know what %of total employees will be laid off this Thursday??
OR
Managers - who have been informed about upcoming layoffs in your teams - what % of your team is getting laid off?
This is the first believable post I've read in a while...scary.
>> I am in Clidell org (Finance) and was told the following late today by my GM...Steveb will send an email out at 0600PST Thursday 22nd announcing cut backs in investments as well as layoffs. Employees will be notified on this day with Friday being last day.
The town hall at 0900 Friday will be after the fact. No effected employees will be eligible for on site internal search which is typically 6 weeks, and I can only think the #'s are too big to be able to pysically house/accomodate. Neither will they be able to apply for any positions posted internally, only those posted externally. In my group the impacted numbers are 9.
No information was forthcoming on severance packages, however in the past the standard package #1 in the US has been capped at 28 weeks with L64 and below getting 1 week for every 6 mos of service and L65 and over getting 2 weeks for every 6 mos service. Word is getting out to Manager so they can schedule meetings with impacted staff.....
So let's see how accurately this game of telephone has played out. The general consensus seems to be:
- as much as 10% of the company
- Announcement Thursday morning from SteveB.
- Layoffs on Thursday.
- Last day Friday.
- 2 weeks severance per 6 months.
- No on-site job search.
For every US citizen over 45 that gets laid off, time to lawyer up. I smell class action coming, considering how many H1-Bs and Ls are in MS.
I have to think this will make good press as well as find some sympathetic ears in Congress.
I feel sad for the people who won't find another internal position and still want to work there.
But just to offer some solace, after ten years I left about a year and a half ago. The first month I questioned my decision. But now, I have restful sleep, enjoy meeting friends, enjoy working in the garden, etc..
I don't earn as much money but my personal quality of life seems to have really improved. So there may be a silver lining to this cloud for some.
To correct some misconceptions:
Allegation: "You have to terminate H-1 workers first."
Truth: There is no requirement in law to terminate H-1 or L-1 workers before US Citizens or Green Card holders are terminated. In fact, it is illegal to discriminate on the basis of immigration status or nationality in hiring or firing decisions. Note that this also means that a company cannot preferentially terminate US Citizens or permanent residents.
Allegation: "H-1 / L-1 workers have 10 days to leave the country."
Truth: Upon termination an H-1/L-1 worker is out-of-status. However, a non-immigrant does not accrue unlawful presence until either a) USCIS rules them to be violating the terms of the non-immigrant visa or b) they reach the end of the period of authorized stay on their I-94 card.
Also, regarding unemployment insurance the only people who may collect it are:
a) US Citizens or permanent residents
b) Non-immigrants who hold an EAD or
c) Canadians (who may collect it even if they return to Canada, due to a reciprocal agreement between USA and Canada)
Note, however, that people falling under b) must consider carefully whether or not to collect unemployment insurance as it could lead to a determination that they are a "public charge" and denial of any permanent resident application. Further, application for unemployment may be reported to USCIS potentially leading to a) a finding that the alien is violating the terms of their non-immigrant status and/or b) denial of any pending petition to adjust to permanent resident status.
The above is not legal advice and is only a general description of the poster's understanding of some laws. Contact a qualified attorney if you need legal advice.
The rumors about (1) mass layoffs and (2) potentially less than 60 days of severance pay don't necessarily add up.
The WARN act requires 60 days notice (or at least pay) if a location employing 500 or more people lets 500 or more go. It makes an exception for "unforseen business circumstances", which in this economy is a questionable claim given that MS has watched the impact on its bottom line for months. There's no mention of an exception for "it happened as the result of a big reorg, and was not a layoff per se," because the significant test is whether 500 people are no longer being paid, not management's explanation as to why. Hopefully that eases immediate worry for some Redmond-based colleagues.
However, field offices likely qualify as separate locations for these purposes. And if the location has less than 500 staff, the layoff has to affect 33% of them before triggering the WARN requirement.
This next week will be interesting. I'm glad I have so much work to do that I won't have time to think (much) about it.
>>>> I am in Clidell org (Finance) and was told the following late today by my GM...Steveb will send an email out at 0600PST Thursday 22nd announcing cut backs in investments as well as layoffs. Employees will be notified on this day with Friday being last day. [etc...]
Well, this posting has succeeded in increasing my fear, uncertainty, and doubt - even though the poster misspelled Cliddell's email alias.
If a layoff is going to happen, I wonder whether GMs have had a say in exactly who should be laid off from their teams...? Or would HR/Finance tell GMS what to do, based on columns in a spreadsheet, with no opportunity for GMs to adjust the layoff list? Would GMs just now be finding out about externally-imposed, unalterable layoff lists?
My org is a lean team that is a substantial moneymaker for the company. Fwiw, the GM says definitively that our org is safe - no layoffs, no RIFs, no reorg (for now). But I don't know how confident this should make me feel.
I'm trying to take everything with a grain of salt, but it's tough...
Scary stuff
Would severance take into account total years of ms employment (I was at ms for 5 years and have been back after2 years at another company)
Not sure about H1B, but L1 visa holders have just 10 days to leave the country once they lose their job
Contrary to popular belief, there is no grace period for non-immigrant visa holders.
Once an employee with non-immigrant status no longer receives an income from their current employer, they are deemed out of status.
To stay legal, the employee should either adjust to B2 (visitor), or immediately find alternative employment. If the latter, once the new employer files I-129, the employee remains in status under their old classification (H-1/L-1 etc.) until their petition is adjudicated.
Furthermore, if a non-immigrant employee is dismissed before the end of their authorized stay, the employer by law has to pay the employee's transportation cost out of the US (see page 8 of form I-129).
I am in Clidell org (Finance) and was told the following late today by my GM...Steveb will send an email out at 0600PST Thursday 22nd announcing cut backs in investments as well as layoffs. Employees will be notified on this day with Friday being last day.
Sounds like FUD. The WARN act has to give employees some time.
Are they going to roll out the MS TV product anywhere?
--
MSTV 1.0 shipped in 2001 with TV CAbo .. various other forms of MSTV product / technology shipped with a few cable operators (EPG, etc).... be specific
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/After-weeks-gloomy-rumors-Microsoft/story.aspx?guid=%7B60023F8B-452E-43DC-9160-E72D9A10FEB4%7D
"...However, some analysts are skeptical that Microsoft will actually cut jobs, something it managed to avoid even in the aftermath of the Internet bubble. Microsoft is more likely, analysts say, to continue slowing its hiring pace while cutting back on contractors and scaling back more ambitious product plans..."
Hello fellow job-seekers from cut groups! Are you, as I, noticing that interviewing is a little odd right now?
Used to be the case that a good discussion of the group with the AA meant a fair chance you'd got the job. At the least, you'd get a timely mail or call from the hiring manager to say that you hadn't been successful.
But this time round... nothing. Unless presumably you did get the position. Do we no longer have time for common courtesy when there are so many candidates available, or are those from cut groups simply being ruled out in some cases?
Take no notice - It's probably just silly old me being paranoid about having no job in the midst of a terrible economic situation!
So does this blog go offline Friday, it's goal having been achieved?
I've heard a couple of groups have a 'move' date of Jan 23rd.
The conspiracy theorist in me began to think about this. Having your office boxed up and ready to move on the 22nd would probably make a layoff very convenient.
Noone takes notice of boxing their stuff up, because they're moving to another office (vs. prepping for lay off), right? Your boxes are moved not to your office but to an offsite location where you can pick them up after getting your pink slip.
Much easier for security, isn't it? But that's just conspiracy theorist talk.
This post had me going for a while, as it contains just enough specifics that sound plausible. However then I started wondering...
I am in Clidell org (Finance) and was told the following late today by my GM...Steveb will send an email out at 0600PST Thursday 22nd announcing cut backs in investments as well as layoffs. Employees will be notified on this day with Friday being last day.
The town hall at 0900 Friday will be after the fact. No effected employees will be eligible for on site internal search which is typically 6 weeks, and I can only think the #'s are too big to be able to pysically house/accomodate. Neither will they be able to apply for any positions posted internally, only those posted externally. In my group the impacted numbers are 9.
No information was forthcoming on severance packages, however in the past the standard package #1 in the US has been capped at 28 weeks with L64 and below getting 1 week for every 6 mos of service and L65 and over getting 2 weeks for every 6 mos service. Word is getting out to Manager so they can schedule meetings with impacted staff.....
Knowing that SteveB will send mail is one thing, knowing the exact time it will go is something else. Also 0600PST is 9:00am Eastern, 30 minutes before the start of trading on Wall Street. There is a reason why companies always wait until after the market closes to make major announcements that could impact trading. Announcing something like this shortly before trading starts makes no sense, it could lead to conjecture that our FY09 2Q results are worse than expected resulting in a tailspin for our stock. I suspect that any layoff announcement will be made in conjunction with the earnings report. Announcing layoffs in the morning and forcing investors to wait until the afternoon for financial results leaves too much of an information gap for too long.
Also, why is it that a finance guy knows the content and timing of a SteveB email, but doesn't know anything about the severance package? Wouldn't that be something we'd expect finance to know about? Yeah, HR would have all the details of who gets what, but you'd think finance would be looped in on the total cost.
So, are you ready to believe that there will be mass layoffs with notice given on Thursday and affected employees shown the door on Friday? I'm not, too many pieces here don't fit.
WTF Mini???
You haven't approved new comments in this thread for 16+ hours, even though you've CRF'd stuff as of a few hours ago.
We are coming here for information (and random rumors :). You admitted that you haven't been moderating this thread much anymore, so please approve the comments faster!!!!
Dear God, If you are reading this blog, then please use your powers to stop the layoffs.
To the guy who think it is all wall st. fault - It is not. You obviously dont know the culture of wall st. or how things work there.
First of all, the tremendous housing market was single most important factor that pulled US economy out of the rut that it was in 200-2002. So the "good times" that you were seeing was partly because of Wall st. Secondly, wall st. guys compensation structure is directly tied to how much business they generate - it does not matter whether they did that by making stupid loans (at least back in the day). You cannot blame a wall streeter for making all those loans, given their bonus depended on it; and as long as there were buyers for those products - it is really those guys' fault. Thirdly - Wall st is essential to US economy and the culture of greed is essential for Wall St. itself. So if wall St. thinks that cutting 15% of workforce at MS is good for MS, they are damn right.
I ask you this - suppose you are a team of 100 people. Do you really think that the same work cannot be done by 85 of you, if you remove the bottom 15% folks from it?
Google 'How to survive layoff' and you will hit some analysis that says that layoffs generally is both good for employer as well as employee. Those 15% folks probably will discover that they have strengths somewhere else and focus on their strengths, or get a shocker and will take work more seriously in future.
Some basic advice as this news gets more real:
- Don't wait to get laid off... you should always have some career options on the back burner. It's *always* good to know what you're worth and be prepared to make a jump to keep yourself growing and happy.
- If you haven't been networking to line up career options, get going now to get a jump on others affected.
- While the economy is tough, there are jobs out there if you are good. If you are not a rock star, then be prepared to do something different (and get paid something different too).
- Have some cash buffer to weather a break from getting paid and really throttle down your spending. It could be MONTHS before you find a new gig.
- Get anything personal you want to keep off your computers and network. Most RIFs lock you out of network resources while you are being told to prevent IP theft, etc.
- On that note, archive/build a list of all your contacts that know you only by your corporate email address. Your OOFs and such will not work as email is shut off too.
- Act quickly to build an alias of affected employees to help identify who is hiring (help each other)
- It's a new year, spend your vision care allowance, go see the dentist/doctor, check FSA balances and such from last year, etc. before your benefits stop
- Do not take this personally. It's a business decision. Do NOT burn bridges as you will need coworkers, managers, etc... to act as references.
- Don't forget about unvested options and what to do with them. You have 3 months to exercise.
Historically, it is 1 week of severance pay for every 6 months of service.
Looks like RO just lost a chunk of his org (Live Mesh under Live). Now that billg is less involved we can officially curtail some of the activities of this "blast from the past" and his ill advised appointment. Although talented RO is not someone we want holding a blank company cheque
(and hopefully start extracting the goofy Groove shareware- like "debris" from our PCs.) Or is this a sign he did his job by incubating Mesh until it was ready to join the main Windows team?
Fact: Microsoft is ranked #1 the largest combined employer of H1B, L visa, and Green cardholders. Source: http://www.myvisajobs.com/Visa-Sponsor/Microsoft/356252.htm
Fact: One-third of Microsoft’s 46,0000 employees are US based employees have work visas or Green Cards. Source: http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/04/news/visa.php
Fact: According to the GAO H-1B workers were often the last to be released because they frequently work in research and development positions that create new products or other areas of the business that generate revenue. Source: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d03883.pdf
Fact: According to the GAO Better Tracking Needed to Help Determine H-1B Program’s Effects on U.S. Workforce. Source: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d03883.pdf
Resource: Cohen & Grigsby (www.cohenlaw.com) 7th Annual Immigration Law Update May 15 2007 training on compliance and not finding qualified US workers. Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU&eurl=http://www.nomoreh1b.com
I see so many angry comments here that smack of "foreigners taking our jobs". Microsoft is present in every country. But, of course, the product is in the different languages of each country. So not only does the product have to be translated by a native speaker, you have to be sensitive and knowledgable of cultural differences. And when you translate a product you find that bugs start popping up everywhere. Microsoft needs people of different countries in these areas of work. These employees make money for all of us and they're essential.
With the recent move (Live Mesh etc. moved under Steve Sinofsky), it is easy to guess what SteveB's upcoming email is about -- someone will get promoted.
So the product I was working on (not a big money maker) has been cancelled in the last few days. It was a surprise for all of us. I hear many other such products are getting cancelled too. I am wondering, will all of the employees in our group be laid off, or will it be just the poor performing employees? I am guessing it will be all employees, given that there aren't many open positions at the moment. That means a lot of highly skilled and experienced developers are going to get laid off.
It seems a little early in the recession to be having a mass layoff. Other companies such as IBM, Intel, Google aren't doing it yet. So why Microsoft? Is Ballmer very sure that the economy won't recover in the next year or so? If the economy recovers in a year it will cost a lot to hire all these people back, and when you consider the layoff package, it isn't profitable to be having a mass layoff this early.
I was screened for an informational!! The person asked for the review scores and resume before he would even meet with me for a 30 minute informational
Hello, this is normal!! You should have emailed your resume and review scores when asking for the informational.
To the folks worried about unvested stock awards. If you are let go, the stock awards vanish. It is clearly spelled out each time you agree to accept the awards, they only become real on the date the award docs say they do - otherwise they don't exist until then.
Likewise, severence is something companies can give or not. Its work-at-will, there is no legal requirement for severence.
[i]For every US citizen over 45 that gets laid off, time to lawyer up. I smell class action coming, considering how many H1-Bs and Ls are in MS.
I have to think this will make good press as well as find some sympathetic ears in Congress.[/i]
Not with the congress. Nope. Try NSM.
I got a 10% review this year (I was in 70% bucket last year); and I think if all the layoff talk here is true, I'd probably be let go this Friday.
But I'd sound caution to all the non-10% guys. Once the bottom 10% gets wiped out, guess who will fall into the 10% bucket this august. Just pray there is not a 2nd round of layoffs coming at that point.
"For every US citizen over 45 that gets laid off, time to lawyer up. I smell class action coming, considering how many H1-Bs and Ls are in MS.
I have to think this will make good press as well as find some sympathetic ears in Congress."
I smell loser in the poster.
I hope that the severance package is a little more generous than the standard 1 week pay for every 6 months of service. Folks are going to need it, in this terrible economy.
"So the product I was working on (not a big money maker) has been cancelled in the last few days."
Which group/product is this if you can please?
Folks. Here is my situation.
I have been at MS for sometime and while I enjoyed it in beginning, I do not anymore (let's just say that my passion for my team's product and culture has waned overtime). I have been thinking of quitting for sometime, but need a job to keep paying my bills. This is the sole reason I have remained at MS for past few months.
This whole talk about severance pay seems enticing to me. I think if I can get a severance package, it will make my decision to leave easier. But I dont really know how to get my lead into considering it. I mean if they simply "fire" me I might get nothing, whereas if they lay me off as a part of some bigger lay-off at Ms, it would be more lucrative for me.
Above is a truthful description of my situation, and I'd appreciate honest opinions/ideas.
"Sounds like FUD. The WARN act has to give employees some time."
This case is still plausible that employees may be asked not to come to work after Friday.
My wife got laid off from a company in Seattle a couple of years ago, she was given 60 day notice but sehe was told not to come to work. WARN act needs to give time (and pay) during mass layoffs, but it doesn't mean they can come to work.
the trolling is freaking people out... if your group or product or team got cut, please say which one and include the cost center number (meaningless outside microsoft yet verifiable within microsoft)
But this time round... nothing. Unless presumably you did get the position. Do we no longer have time for common courtesy when there are so many candidates available, or are those from cut groups simply being ruled out in some cases?
Really? When they do it to a fellow MStie it is such an offence? Hiring Managers do that all the time esp to an outside candidate. I have heard cases of hiring managers not keeping up with the calls, not returning emails / calls back, and basic 'you-are-not-selected' mail.
It is the general quality of ppl we have in MSFT.
I know couple of ppl who got really put off by this and went to find somewhere else.
Layoff is bad but I hope that will teach some basic courtesy.
I've been in MS for quite a while. Actually I saw this layoff thing as either way I can benefit. If getting laid off, the severance package looks good - if the economy rebouds in the 2009Q3 I might get a job somewhere else and pocket the severance:) If I am not the unlucky one to let go, this is good for me as a stockholder as company gets rid of underperformers..
Why don't they layoff this huge unproductive middle management.
I see managers (L62 or L63) with 3 or less direct reports. They can easily remove one middle manager without any impact and flatten out org.
There should not be a manager with less than 4 direct FTE reports (believe me these are people managers with no real technical talent).
for all those who are claiming that their citizenship should guard them against the layoffs. please migrate to Venezuela or Cuba. your friendly socialist / communist rulers will ensure that you have a permanent job that feeds you enough to not be dead.
c'mon, see yourselves in the mirror. if this is the argument you got to keep your job, chances are you will lose it. and it will be good for you. you enjoyed all the benefits of capitalism while the goings were good. now when the goings get tough and you find your chops are inferior than other's, you cry for protection. dont you feel ashamed of yourself?
a company that runs on talent should feel fortunate by losing you. you do not belong here. not only you but everyone who gave you a hire should be fired.
anyone who argues to keep the job based on anything else apart from talent, experience and skill should be placed right at the top of "good riddance" list. they are the deadwood that sane people are crying against. weed them out and company performance will rocket
Folks. Here is my situation.
...
Above is a truthful description of my situation, and I'd appreciate honest opinions/ideas.
Wait, and don't mention any of this to anyone, not even non-microsofties. Seriously, if you were thinking of leaving anyway, why not wait a week and see if you can leave with a big parting gift? The moment you indicate that you were thinking of leaving anyway you could jeopardize your claim to severance (assuming there is any).
Also, this isn't like an overbooked flight, you can't simply volunteer to give up your seat so that someone else can stay on the plane. If layoffs are happening I believe the numbers, teams, and individuals are already known at this point, you are either on the list or aren't, no way to influence it by talking to your manager as he/she probably hasn't even seen it yet and very likely has no influence on it.
You've waited this long, you can wait another week. Nothing against you, but I'm hoping you leave on your own will and empty handed (meaning no one else got layed off either).
f*cking chill out man...
> WTF Mini???
You haven't approved new comments in this thread for 16+ hours, even though you've CRF'd stuff as of a few hours ago.
To 9:03 pm.
You only have one life to live. Don't waste it working at the wrong place. Resign and move on to another workplace or a new passion -- you will be happier.
To the fanboys who think no layoffs are happening - who cares if the rumors are fake. The economy is doing very badly right now if you didn't notice. It will eventually happen, and it won't be just the contractors and vendors. Maybe layoffs don't hit this week, but eventually the layoffs must happen given the state of the economy.
To anon @ Sunday, January 18, 2009 9:03:00 PM, re: wanting to get rif'd.
First of all, tread very very lightly.
If things do indeed go down this week, you're out of luck. Any discretion your manager might have had is gone by now. The names are in the hopper and processes rolling. So keep your mouth shut and projected attitude up for the another week & see what happens.
If either nothing happens, or you don’t get rolled out the first round (I personally think it’s going to be 2 rounds because our ‘leadership’ is so surrounded by at least two layers of toadys they really don’t know how deep they can cut without ruining the business & will ease into it) there are several things or combination of things you can do that could be I suppose described as proactive. The goal here is to leave without scathing reviews or references to your next employer that will leave your record intact.
1. You could suck in your work and set yourself up for 10% hood. Not recommended as it leaves too much documentation if you stay in the industry.
2. Some company’s do voluntary buyouts. This is a strategy MS could use to its advantage, perhaps the best outside of #4 below but probably won’t. Popular wisdom aside, our best talent won’t leave. We already reward those folks well. Unhappy people will leave. In my mind it’d be outstanding all around, but MS will f it up on this one. Many folks will be watching their angry/sad co-workers leave wondering ‘why couldn’t it have been me?’.
3. If you really know your manager well you could whisper something in their ear. Or, you could do so via a co-worker who is tight with your manager to act as bridge. This later might be best because everyone is really looking out for their best interests while having some deniability. This option is the second most perilous outside #1.
4. Do whatever you can to get into one of our loser businesses or product groups. Strive to become overhead in turbulent economic times. The comments in this blog have gone on ad nauseam about all the multi-year, multi-billion bets we’ll never recover. These are merely the biggies. There are many more in the hundreds of million that are ripe for merging into other places or evaporation.
5. Unclear what you do, but see if you can’t get a job doing something that is easily outsourced in any BG. Based on trends and themes the lower the pay level, the more likely this is to happen as our base floor rises and we either systematize or offshore or dash those jobs. Again as commenter’s have been shrill about – once you are at MS, it’s a footrace to the top & if you happen to be good at and satisfied with a job everyone else is clawing their way above you will be the last one standing before the role is no longer a role.
Good luck! Not a bad strategy frankly.
I think it is good time for Microsoft to drop this inflated stuff. I can speak about Microsoft Russia. They have to many people who does not much work.
The layoff threat could force them to start finally working instead of spaming in "russia - internal discussions" and enjoing legalization projects.
Hope that people who really work will be on top. Crisis is good time to start doing your job. Sad that Richard Carey is already left Microsoft (he should be responsible for huge hiring in Services Russia).
I worked fro MS for five+ years and saw this hiring of so much unprofessional people.
Gosh man, if I were the competition I would keep tricking some posters into revealing more confidential info: "And what group was that? (being closed)" etc. You think this is a MS exclusive post? It's not corpnet, no LBI etc, widen open for the whole world to enjoy. Oh yeah about conspiracy theories: the SteveB email at 06:00, how about that one! Just keep your cool until Friday. Nothing or no rumors will change the message on that day and speculations tend to be on the wild side anyways. How do speculators make money? Rumors, rumors and rumors.
Mid-year career discussions are coming up. I wish that someone in HR would acknowledge that this exercise this year is a complete waste of time and money given hiring freezes and expected reductions in headcount. We might as well be having career discussions in a communist country where we are stuck in our roles until a major political change happens to comes along. Seriously, why are we doing mid-year career discussions this year? I have always been skeptical of the purpose of that Career Compass tool.
For people who think there wouldn't be any layoofs or who think this would be the last layoff of Microsoft:
Layoffs are like seeing cockroaches in your house. If you have seen one, most probably there are lot more of them hiding somewhere to come out in different times to surprise you. Once I was working in a mid size company where nobody believed layoffs can even possible. Managment laid off all the people in two and a half years. There were 6 different layoffs (there was even a rumor the top manager was a sadist who really enjoyed seeing people escorted out of the door and watching them from a hidden place).
Friends and colleagues, I hope this information can help you. Kim
1. Check the web, lots of discussions on fairness and objectivity of ‘stack ranking’ and performance.
2. Layoff decisions based on “performance” - Rather than using “last hired, first fired” companies often base layoff decisions based on “job performance.” Yet, how is a newer, less experienced employee with far less training able to outperform a long-term employee? Job skill is rarely the real reason that long-term employees are left unemployed while new employees keep their jobs.
Why? “People tend to hire people who remind them of themselves. The corollary is that people do not hire, or retain, employees who do not remind them of themselves. If the reason that an employee does not remind the hiring manager of themselves has to do with a protected class – such as the employee is of a different age, different race, is disabled, is a different gender – then this very human tendency to hire people like ourselves is not just a human tendency; its illegal discrimination.
2 Recent 2008 Supreme Court ruling makes it easier to prove age discrimination http://www.hrworld.com/features/changes-age-discrimination-lawsuits-082608/
Changes to Age-Discrimination Lawsuit Employees who sue a company alleging that layoffs disproportionately affected older workers may find it easier to win their cases following a recent Supreme Court ruling. Ruling places the burden of proof on the EMPLOYER to show that their criteria for dismissal do not violate the ADEA when the results of the evaluation and dismissal process disproportionately affect older employees.
3 Be careful what you sign.
AARP advises caution when you're asked to sign away your rights to sue an employer for discrimination.
IEEE warns of “high pressure tactics” to encourage employees to sign now or loose severance
Older employees caught up in company downsizings are often offered attractive severance benefits, but only on the condition that they sign an agreement waiving their rights to bring a case against the employer alleging age discrimination or other prohibited behavior.
4. Time is of the essence – the EEOC has a strict 180-day time limit to file age discrimination complaint
Additional Resources
Age Bias and Performance in layoff decisions http://www.undercoverlawyer.com/archives/34
IEEE " HIGH TECH WORKERS AND AGE DISCRIMINATION http://www.ieeeusa.org/careers/employment/age.html
National Employment Lawyers Association (NELA)
Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC)
I stopped reading your comment when I realized you spelled Liddell's name wrong.
Seems like there is a lot of people trying to stir the pot in these comments at this point, so much so that they don't even bother to check the spelling of the names of people they supposedly work with/for.
Yeah, there is a lot of people...
For those of you who keep coming with these stories, might as well get his name right - Chris Liddell. I find it hard to believe someone working in his org, and high enough to know the details of such drastic plans, would not know his how to spell his name...
would not know his how to spell his name - what kind of new grammar is this?
Some builds are having doors and windows cleaning. Some builds are having walls painted. Why still waster money on such kind of things?
In soviet microsoft, midyear reviews do you...
Windows has created the short list for layoffs. We are waiting for the tiger to pull the trigger.
WRT all of the "inside" information from supposedly high up people -
I have a REALLY hard time believing anyone who has been able to navigate the political climate at a huge corporation long enough to be a part of such a huge decision would post about it anonymously on a blog. They didn't get where they are without learning to keep their mouths shut.
Here's my advice: Indulge in reading the creative Troll fiction if you must, but for God's sake go back to work!
Wow, comments are being approved again?
Hey Coach Mora! I'm going to a party later with girls - should I talk to them about layoffs? Layoffs?! Layoffs?! Don't talk about layoffs! Layoffs?!
LOL
Most researchers never shipped a product, should they go too?
Even Yahoo did not fire any researcher!
Are you saying we should try to be more like Yahoo? Because that's really scary.
(BTW, yes, we should fire some of our research folks.)
Windows has created the short list for layoffs. We are waiting for the tiger to pull the trigger
Who is the tiger? How many people on the short list?
from Seattle Post Intelligencer at 10:13pm
Microsoft expansion could take a hit to cut costs
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/396697_msftexpansion20.html
I have a REALLY hard time believing anyone who has been able to navigate the political climate at a huge corporation long enough to be a part of such a huge decision would post about it anonymously on a blog. They didn't get where they are without learning to keep their mouths shut.
This actually made me laugh out loud... not just LOL, but truthfully laugh out loud.
Apparently you've never, ever read a newspaper or watched television, or had a discussion about politics.
Informants? Leaks? "Off the record" sources? Deep Throat? Internalized guilt? The need to tell secrets is a fundamental part of human nature.
FOR. CRYING. OUT. LOUD.
Where do you people come from? WHERE? I demand to know.
I do indeed have a bridge to sell you, and it's a really nice one...
Details of the Layoffs should be available either during the Earnings release on 01/22 or at the Q&A with the analysts that follows.
MSFT obviously has a strong enough financial base to handle the number of current employees. However, the current business climate provides a nice excuse for making some needed cuts.
"I do indeed have a bridge to sell you, and it's a really nice one..."
I have a nice tin foil hat for you.
2009 rolled around and rumors flew wild
Job cuts were coming and would not be mild
Vendors were leaving as their contracts expired
FTE's with good options went elsewhere or retired
Forced out were those whose commitments were not met
If your're at less than 10%...you deserve what you get
Many cried foul, as so much cash was at hand
MSFT was making money and well in command
The economic woes served as a perfect excuse
Sr. Management took advantage and cut 10% loose
Yahoo's on-line was acquired later that year
Overtaking Google appeared to be quite near
2010 came upon us and surprises were in store
Steveb was retiring and heading to the NBA floor
Ozzie took the lead and captained the ship
Until Billg returned and started cracking the whip
Normalcy was restored and the stock started to climb
Beer was a plenty, just like back in a better time
Has anyone noticed that HeadTrax has a notice that it is down until sometime on Friday?
"People who have never shipped a product should go. People who hired people who never shipped a product should go."
Hey anonymous 1/14 7:31pm, does this count?
"As part of this plan, Microsoft will eliminate up to 5,000 jobs in R&D, marketing, sales, finance, legal, HR, and IT over the next 18 months, including 1,400 jobs today (1/22)."
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2009/jan09/01-22fy09Q2earnings.mspx
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