Microsoft FY09Q4 Results
This is it. The wrap up of FY09, coming fresh to us Thursday July 23rd. I'll put this up a bit early in case there are any initial questions, thoughts, or insights regarding how FY09 is closing.
Some of my favorite places to track insights and opinions on MSFT quarterly results:
- Mr. Joe Wilcox over at Betanews.
- Mr. Todd Bishop's Microsoft Blog at TechFlash.
- Mr. Joseph Tartakoff somewhere within paidContent.org
Topics I'm interested in:
- Description of efficiency so far and an enumeration of which groups are going to get Sinofsky'd.
- Assessment of further financial risk at the hands of the EU Commission.
- Oh, any more layoffs? If not, it would be wise for the SLT - for the sake of employee morale - to close the door on this now.
Given how negative Ballmer has been about the economic reset, I can't imagine any rosy picture painting just yet, even if Intel looks like it has bottomed out and Apple is frantically trying to create as many iPhones as it possibly can.
373 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 373 of 373This is my first post and I am looking for advise from this forum. This is my first review at MS and I was put in bottom 10%. I became scape goat for typical Microsoft politics. I was told by my manager told that he is preparing to walk me out. I already have a job offer from another big company in same region. My question is, how do I bite the bullet? I am unable to digest the fact that is happening for me. How do I keep my moral high. Do I need to wait till they take decision or quit on my own?
No offense, but assuming this isn't just a troll post, have you considered the possibility that you maybe just aren't very good at your job? Not every 10% rating is political, and since you didn't give any details nobody reading your post can really make a realistic assessment either way.
"SteveB and his 'management team' are a bunch of self-seeking losers. If the Board had any balls he would be gone, and many of the SLT with him."
There's a development coming in the next six to twelve months that has the potential to break through this past inaction. Specifically, one or more of Apple, Google, IBM are likely to take MS's marketcap crown during that timeframe. That is going to be historic, and no amount of damage control is going to keep shareholders from demanding Ballmer's resignation. At that point the board isn't going to have much choice but to go along.
I am an IC dev and recently got promoted to L64. What are the implications of being in 10% bucket for senior ICs assuming that I get an Achieved. Are senior ICs allowed to stagnate at their level. I dont see myself moving upto L65 and was wondering what would happen if I just continue to remain 10% + Achieved.
Welcome to the Microsoft conundrum. You will either need to move to management or you will slowly but surely die the death of a thousand cuts. At some point (3, 4, 5 maybe more years) upper management is going to question your manager about WTH is going on and why aren't you moving to the next level.
Regardless no matter how good you are they are going to start making plans to take you out like yesterdays trash. Even though you are still probably contributing a boat load and have institutional knowledge up the wazoo, they won't care. I've been in unit meetings where this topic has come up and they will tell you it is OK but it is pure fiction.
I am an IC dev and recently got promoted to L64. What are the implications of being in 10% bucket for senior ICs assuming that I get an Achieved. Are senior ICs allowed to stagnate at their level. I dont see myself moving upto L65 and was wondering what would happen if I just continue to remain 10% + Achieved.
My experience is in the Office org. Level 63+ you are allowed to level up much much slower. For under level 63, you start getting looked at funny in calibration if you've been in level longer than 2.5-3 years. After level 63, it goes up to around ~5.
To be clear, I'm not saying you can get 10% year after year with no consequences. 2 of those in a row and you're probably on the way out.
"Strong 64s don't get put in the 10% bucket even if they've hit a ceiling -- many people stay at 64 indefinitely. If you're a strong 64 and your work is respected, you'll be squarely in the 70% bucket. If you get 10% the org is telling you that you're not valued."
this is 100% correct. There's a reason (well, many reasons actually) why principals (64+) are not ranked alongside 59-63.
Here's a thought-provoking article on the differences between "Managers" and "Makers" and how those differences can affect productivity.
http://www.paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html.
A sample: "Since most powerful people operate on the manager's schedule, they're in a position to make everyone resonate at their frequency if they want to. But the smarter ones restrain themselves ..."
I already have a job offer from another big company in same region. My question is, how do I bite the bullet?
If you have an offer from another company just get the fuck out.
I was told by my manager told that he is preparing to walk me out
If you still have some sense of self respect left, don't wait for your manager to walk you out.Leave on your own.
How do I keep my moral high ?
Leave the company as early as possible.
Microsoft Should Buy Palm, Now
Welcome to the Microsoft conundrum. You will either need to move to management or you will slowly but surely die the death of a thousand cuts. At some point (3, 4, 5 maybe more years) upper management is going to question your manager about WTH is going on and why aren't you moving to the next level.
Regardless no matter how good you are they are going to start making plans to take you out like yesterdays trash. Even though you are still probably contributing a boat load and have institutional knowledge up the wazoo, they won't care. I've been in unit meetings where this topic has come up and they will tell you it is OK but it is pure fiction.
This makes no sense, so you're saying that if you join right out of school the only options are to either make Principal level by your mid 30's or you're forced out of the company?
> There's a development coming in the next six to twelve months that has the potential to break through this past inaction. Specifically, one or more of Apple, Google, IBM are likely to take MS's marketcap crown during that timeframe. That is going to be historic, and no amount of damage control is going to keep shareholders from demanding Ballmer's resignation. At that point the board isn't going to have much choice but to go along.
I smell a troll...do you? Go back to your cave, troll.
This is my first post and I am looking for advise from this forum. This is my first review at MS and I was put in bottom 10%. I became scape goat for typical Microsoft politics. I was told by my manager told that he is preparing to walk me out. I already have a job offer from another big company in same region.
Take the offer. Why are you even thinking about it?
I would leave if I could find a new job!
"This makes no sense, so you're saying that if you join right out of school the only options are to either make Principal level by your mid 30's or you're forced out of the company?"
Actually it makes perfect sense. The only other approach that makes sense is to invent a time machine and join in 1988. Then you can be a complete prick like rickd and hang out for a couple of decades, pretend you are brilliant, and join Ignition Partners while fucking more people over.
Let's face it ... most classic MS people (not MSPeople because that is an internal application) are not brain surgeons, curers of cancer or much of any-fucking-thing really ... just lucky SOBs who happened to be in the 711 at the right time to buy the winning Lotto ticket. And now they are shitting all over you. So get over it! Also I sense that you madam/sir are not internal as you refer to 'principal' although the correct term is 'partner'.
"There's a development coming in the next six to twelve months that has the potential to break through this past inaction. Specifically, one or more of Apple, Google, IBM are likely to take MS's marketcap crown during that timeframe. That is going to be historic, and no amount of damage control is going to keep shareholders from demanding Ballmer's resignation. At that point the board isn't going to have much choice but to go along.
I smell a troll...do you? Go back to your cave, troll."
Well dude, I smell something. And I think what I smell is desperation. SteveB's 70s college bud is almost out of shares. Paul Allen is out of options. Name me one of these retards who has made a dime not associated with MSFT? What brilliant moves have these folks made [chirp chirp]?
After the Yahoo deal, can someone ask Ballmer to announce that he is going to buy Apple. That should bring down Apples stock to 14 dollars in the next three years
Regarding more layoffs: I am the owner of one of the approved Vendor companies used by Microsoft, and an HR employee (who shall remain nameless) told me last month that there will be at least another two layoff waves this year. Based on my experience MSFT can run with half its FTEs and rely on contractors here and offshore to get the products done. This will cut costs, double the productivity and hopefully get the stocks to move north.
"I smell a troll...do you? Go back to your cave, troll."
No. Looks like straight extrapolation of current market value and five year average stock returns. That would have Apple and Google passing MS this next year. Of course sustaining past average gains gets harder the larger your marketcap. But both are showing more strength in their businesses as well. So it's at least possible, maybe even probable.
It would (will?) certainly be visible and embarassing. But if that was the only requirement for Steve's departure, he'd already be gone.
Microsoft does a lot of layoffs at levels like 61, 62, 63, all being told they are limited. Now, 400 new employees come from Yahoo, probably at levels like 66, 67, 68, and will just use a bunch of Microsoft employees at lower levels to do the work for them while they use time to learn how to operate at Microsoft.
Microsoft increases its payroll, while Yahoo will alleviate theirs. Microsoft pays annual fees to Yahoo. Microsoft gets all the operational expense of building and maintaining data centers. I believe that I will ask Ballmer to show his cards on this one.
Today, one buys MSFT at 23.81 and YHOO at 14.67. My suspicion is that in a year we will see the opposite.
I don't know if you guys saw the document that got "leaked" from Netflix... about management philosophy, values, promotions. I don't know if all of that is true or not:
http://www.slideshare.net/reed2001/culture-1798664
But it certainly sounds good.
What is appalling to me... Reed Hastings (NetFlix's CEO) is on the board of Microsoft. Why the hell doesn't he bring some of that philosophy over here? Damn it.
This makes no sense, so you're saying that if you join right out of school the only options are to either make Principal level by your mid 30's or you're forced out of the company?
It may not make sense but it isn't far from reality. My advice to anyone thinking of working for Microsoft would be to consider all other opportunities first. Especially in an era when you will never get rich off of stock options in the 10-15 years you'll have at Microsoft.
I work in the field. For those of you familiar with kt, the phrase "servant leadership" will ring a bell.
I learned where that came from in reading a book about walmart. basically that is the wallmart philosophy which has in its roots a lot of fundamentalist christian outlook. basically the idea is that if you are cleaning the bathroom, if you are doing it for christ, its all good.
sounds kind of creepy to me. i mean, that's all good for church, but is that microsoft culture?
'I sure hope "better times are coming"!!'
Yes they are. This is the phrase I used in correctly predicting the demise of MariaMa. I was right then and I am right now. Never sleep in a room with a clown is my motto, and MS Solve is wearing a red nose and amusing the children as we speak.
Just be patient a little while longer ... these things will sort themselves out as common sense grabs a hold.
>sounds kind of creepy to me. i >mean, that's all good for church, >but is that microsoft culture?
Wouldn't you love to see managers willing to die for us fighting HR, willing to go extra mile to help business succeed, cut their own salary to the bones before laying off anyone or maybe even honestly look at themselves first? This is what Christ was teaching and I wish SLT practice their Faith more :-)
As Some poster said it earlier Microsoft now is just like any other company on earth.
The reality is lot of teens and college folks are turning more and more to apple products. I am not saying thats the demise of MS however MS needs a good strategy to counteract that. Best example is go to any mall that has a apple retail store on a weekend and you will agree with me. This is why I say somewhere down the road MS lost its charm.
MS needs to reinvent itself. Thats all I can say.
It may not make sense but it isn't far from reality. My advice to anyone thinking of working for Microsoft would be to consider all other opportunities first. Especially in an era when you will never get rich off of stock options in the 10-15 years you'll have at Microsoft.
Perhaps it depends on the team... there are two people on my team who have been at the company for >10 years and are level 62, and one person who has been here much longer than that and is 63-64. To my knowledge there aren't any plans to force any of them out of the company.
My advice to anyone thinking of working for Microsoft would be to consider all other opportunities first. Especially in an era when you will never get rich off of stock options in the 10-15 years you'll have at Microsoft.
Couldn't agree more. In addition, your family life and your health will be negatively affected if you decide to work for Microsoft. It's not worthy. Many ex microsoft people will tell you that.
I am the owner of one of the approved Vendor companies used by Microsoft, and an HR employee (who shall remain nameless) told me last month that there will be at least another two layoff waves this year.
An HR employee told an external vendor about future layoffs?? give me a break. I've met many of these folks that own these "mickey-mouse-consulting" shops that just brag about their "connections" with microsoft FTE-VIP's. Just a bunch of liars. I don't believe this story for a second.
happy, just got promoted!!
base pay +5% bonus 1+5% stock 225%
:-)
bing it on!
About servant leadership.... not creepy at all! It's the opposite of the usual attitude: "I've made it, I'm a big cheese around here, so you just do what I say".
I used to work for a medium-sized company - miserable life as a dev, the bosses kept coming back with new requirements, and there were continual changes of priority.
It was ultimately bought by Schneider Electric who have an interesting philosophy - top managers have 4 years in their post before getting moved on to something else (better or worse, depending on how well they did).
While it is still a competitive culture, this policy means that empire-building is off the menu and managers focus on growing the business. As the GM once said - while saying "hi" to my wife - "I want this place to be like an ant heap - when you look inside each one knows what they should be doing, and is doing it".
Well 5 years later the company has fewer products, they are better engineered, and sales have probably doubled.
Nowadays I'm part of a mission agency that follows servant leadership principles. It certainly works well in this context - gives the organisation cohesion and common purpose.
When being a leader brings no increase in status or income, you're left with those who lead because they've been asked to do so.
This would probably work very well in software development (seems to work for the open-sourcers) and in internal services (HR, etc.).
This is my first post and I am looking for advise from this forum. This is my first review at MS and I was put in bottom 10%. I became scape goat for typical Microsoft politics. I was told by my manager told that he is preparing to walk me out. I already have a job offer from another big company in same region. My question is, how do I bite the bullet? I am unable to digest the fact that is happening for me. How do I keep my moral high. Do I need to wait till they take decision or quit on my own?
I am original Poster. The reason why I am still hanging out in MS is to see if any conditions, such as re-organization or improvement program might change my situation. I accepted offer from another company and asking them to extend joining date.
There is absolutely no support from manager.
If I leave on my own, What are my options of coming back again ?
Interesting read about microsoft's retail effort (Putting lipstick on Microsoft’s pigs) :
http://brainstormtech.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2009/08/06/how-does-microsoft-put-lipstick-on-this-product-needhams-charlie-wolf/
This makes no sense, so you're saying that if you join right out of school the only options are to either make Principal level by your mid 30's or you're forced out of the company?
Yes, that is true. That's why I had to leave after around 10 years there. No matter what level you start at (I started at a manager level) if you don't get promoted every 2 years, you will be forced out of the company. Sooner or later.
"Regarding more layoffs: I am the owner of one of the approved Vendor companies used by Microsoft, and an HR employee (who shall remain nameless) told me last month that there will be at least another two layoff waves this year."
Name your sources, and provide more specifics on these waves, or GTFO. There's at least 1 - 2 troll replies in about every 50 - 75 replies to a given Mini post. Nothing here gives me any reason to believe this.
"Based on my experience MSFT can run with half its FTEs and rely on contractors here and offshore to get the products done. This will cut costs, double the productivity and hopefully get the stocks to move north."
If you're a troll, again, no reason to believe this. If you're not a troll, then what is the point of the owner of a vendor company saying Microsoft could do better with more contractors? That's rather like the owner of a dairy farm saying we're not getting enough milk and cheese in our diets.
My honest experience at Microsoft was when I worked hard and long hours, I got lower reviews than when I worked 3 hours a day and browsed the internet the rest of the time.
No joke. I got two promo's in one year where I worked maybe 2-3 hours a day and bummed around the rest of the time. No idea how that happened.
Microsoft values the wrong thing. To them, visibility is management knowing who you are. They knew me better when I was walking around (took lots of breaks from browsing the web) and so I got more recognition. I wasn't actually doing better work.
When I got a promo to the next level, I was told I couldn't do what I love anymore, because what I love is considered beneath my level.
I quit.
Too bad.. I loved what I did. Hopefully I can find something else I love just as much. But for now, I am on a break! Woo hoo!
Could anyone help with a few questions.
Does Microsoft accept ideas from external parties?
I have an idea similar to Healthvault. If Microsoft accepts ideas who would I send it to?
"I believe that I will ask Ballmer to show his cards on this one."
Simple. It's part of his strategy to make up for the declining cash cows by losing money in online and entertainment.
For those of you familiar with kt, the phrase "servant leadership" will ring a bell.
I learned where that came from in reading a book about walmart. basically that is the wallmart philosophy which has in its roots a lot of fundamentalist christian outlook. basically the idea is that if you are cleaning the bathroom, if you are doing it for christ, its all good.
sounds kind of creepy to me. i mean, that's all good for church, but is that microsoft culture?
Um, you've got it kind of wrong there.
Servant-leadership is not a Walmart concept. It came from a guy who worked at AT&T and MIT, though it's much older than that in practice. And it has nothing to do with Christianity, other than sharing some mom-and-apple-pie concepts like empathy, responsibility, humility, etc. But since you brought it up, there is a Bible passage used to explain part of the philosophy: "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." Meaning, a leader who thinks people exist to make God more important has it backwards. Not sure how you can square that with cleaning toliets in the name of Jesus, but I can easily imagine anyone writing a book about Walmart getting pretty far off into the weeds and misunderstanding things. Alternately, Walmart could have it bass-ackwards. Wouldn't be the first time a large company bastardized a reasonable managmeent concept in order to justify doing what they wanted to do anyway.
Translated to corporate management, the idea of Servant-Leadership is that someone chooses to be a leader because they think that is how they can best contribute to the overall goals. The opposite of a servant-leader is someone who chooses leadership because they think it will bring them the most personal gain and let them appropriate the company's resources for their own goals.
I would say that the bulk of MSFT's existing managmeent chain are not servant-leaders. A real Servant-Leader would be focused on how MSFT could best serve the needs of it's customers instead of how it could best serve the needs of their own career. The Curve, visibility, and "You own your own career", the cultural mainstays that have formed our current managment ranks, aren't very conducive to Servant-Leadership.
Folks in leadership positions more focused on serving customers than on making Partner would do wonders for MSFT's performance. But that would require their own management chain recognize commitment to the products and reward it without the constant "managing up" associated with career advancment in today's MSFT. KT has been around long enough and not pushed that sort of change through, so I doubt he's the guy to make it happen.
I am original Poster. The reason why I am still hanging out in MS is to see if any conditions, such as re-organization or improvement program might change my situation. I accepted offer from another company and asking them to extend joining date.
There is absolutely no support from manager.If I leave on my own, What are my options of coming back again ?
Just get the hell out soon! Trust me, once you spend some time outside of MS you will not have a moment of regret. You will not be thinking about going back. Guaranteed. So don't postpone your joining date with your other company or very soon they will get tired of you and you will end up unemployed, and then you will regret it.
talking about vendors.. anyone heard of them being asked to pay for their cubicle space ?
If Microsoft accepts ideas who would I send it to?
You could post your idea here. Even the top executives read this blog. You would not have a better sound channel than this.
If you want credit, you could post your name too.
If you want money, you need to have a patent filed for it, and then after posting the idea, post the link to the patent too. Simple.
If you do not have a patent file and you still want money for an idea, then that's an oxymoron.
I am original Poster. The reason why I am still hanging out in MS is to see if any conditions, such as re-organization or improvement program might change my situation. I accepted offer from another company and asking them to extend joining date.
There is absolutely no support from manager.
If I leave on my own, What are my options of coming back again ?
A bad performance review should be enough excuse to leave the company. You should not place your new job offer in jeopardy by wasting time here. I think if any hiring manager wants you in future he can bring you (odds are against you because of the recent review and the possibility of negative influence from your current manager). But again if Microsoft need your skill they will bring you. If they dont need they may show lots of excuses. I would not bother about coming back in current situation. And when your team will fire you they will not feel any hesitation. They will just march you to the door within half hour notice. As a person having similar experience I have just a curisity whether they care about the victims future consideration of returning back to Microsoft. No way. Microsoft just consider a poor performer as a refuse to throw into trash. And so they just tell the person bye with utmost uncivility.
"happy, just got promoted!!
base pay +5% bonus 1+5% stock 225%
:-)
bing it on!"
Is this an example of a good promotion or just the entry level promotion? I am hoping I will receive a promotion when we get our reviews, but was curious on what 'levels' of promotions there were.
Looking around the web today, I saw this article by Walt Mossberg:
http://mossblog.allthingsd.com/20090804/deciphering-windows-7-upgrades-the-official-chart/
Who releases an upgrade chart like that? Give it to an average person and ask them to quickly point out where their needs are met in the grid. And even if they get that right, why are there so few in-place upgrade options?
This perfectly fits the definition "Epic fail."
It's complex, confusing to new users and hints that unless the user is careful, they'll lose all their files.
---happy, just got promoted!!
base pay +5% bonus 1+5% stock 225%
:-)
bing it on!
You got promoted in the middle of August? Doesn't Promotion get through in September?
base pay : 5%?
bonus : 15%?
stock 225%?
what are you? Exceeded , 20%?
if stock moves more north, we will be canada.
Let's look to history for some markers, of companies with what looks like having been in a trajectory very similar to what MSFT is going through right now.
In particular, this line from the annals of history:
"Growth in revenue slowed significantly in 1989 and DEC responded with a voluntary severance plan for manufacturing employees. It was a modest plan offered to 700 employees at a time when the company employed 125,800 people. In reporting this development The Wall Street Journal hinted at the deeper significance of this move by stating, "Like International Business Machines Corp., Digital has a long history of avoiding layoffs ... As growth has slowed, profit margins have shrunk and the company has sought to cut costs... As part of its reallocation program, the company disclosed in June a plan to shift as many as 4,000 manufacturing and administrative workers to customer service and sales jobs in the year ending July 1990." ( Wilke, 1989)."
and this:
"The situation worsened markedly in fiscal year 1990 and the last quarter , ending in June, produced DEC's first loss in the company's history. That was due both to a revenue decline (from $3.37 billion to $3.49 billion) and a $400 million charge to pay for retraining redundant workers and providing severance pay for some 5,000 to 6,000 workers. For the entire 1990 fiscal year revenue fell to $74.4 million compared with a net of $1.07 billion in 1989 (Bulkely,1990)."
For the full story, see this: American National Business Hall of Fame, Ken Olsen.
Now combine that with the hubristic outburst of the guy running MSFT: Ballmer: Apple market share gains are a 'rounding error'
And one wonders if it's just a matter of when, not if, MSFT lands in the bit-bucket of history too.
"I was promoted to 63 in march.
"I was promoted but I think she's giving me 10%.
"Would I be ok if she hadn't promoted me?"
Promoting someone and then immediately giving them a 10% makes a manager look like they made a mistake. I'll guess that you'll make 70% (but take that warning seriously).
From http://tinyurl.com/lu4tmj Microsoft says it will now charge all small businesses an annual domain registration fee, even those companies it had promised free Web site registrations for life. ...
So Microsoft promised Web Site registrations for life for those that enrolled in Office Live Small Business before Feb of 2008. Now they break that promise. Somehow it's not surprising coming from those MS marketing inepts. It's not the amount, but the principle. Should customers trust MS with future promises ?
When I got a promo to the next level, I was told I couldn't do what I love anymore, because what I love is considered beneath my level.
I quit.
Heh - I've seen this one before. Guess what, dude? You were managed out.
"KT has been around long enough and not pushed that sort of change through, so I doubt he's the guy to make it happen."
Dude, he would if he could, but he is way too busy cleaning up the mess in Aisle 14 ("customer assistance needed in X-Box ... customer assistance ...) come on now, if you were making 5-10 mill a year would you give a flying fuck? KT is just bending over, grabbing his ankles and saying 'please Sir, can I have some more?' just like the rest of us.
Anonymous said...
This is my first post and I am looking for advise from this forum. This is my first review at MS and I was put in bottom 10%. I became scape goat for typical Microsoft politics. I was told by my manager told that he is preparing to walk me out. I already have a job offer from another big company in same region. My question is, how do I bite the bullet? I am unable to digest the fact that is happening for me. How do I keep my moral high. Do I need to wait till they take decision or quit on my own?
I am original Poster. The reason why I am still hanging out in MS is to see if any conditions, such as re-organization or improvement program might change my situation. I accepted offer from another company and asking them to extend joining date.
There is absolutely no support from manager.
If I leave on my own, What are my options of coming back again ?
Thursday, August 06, 2009 1:10:00 AM
Wow. Just wow. Maybe Microsoft isn't the bad guy here? Given that you are basically playing the field with two companies at once. If I found out you had accepted my offer but were really just putting it in your back pocket to decide whether you liked the latest reorg at your current job, getting a 10% wouldn't be an issue -- you'd be out on your ear.
As a msft employee, I can only say -- good riddance.
Come on Mini, it's time - time for the one and only post each year that really matters. The performance review post, where everyone can share, gloat and whine about their numbers. Let's get it started - you've got about a week.
Lots of trolls here.
1. If you recently got promoted to L64, one 10% is not going to send you packing. (After many years in level, then perhaps you can worry.)
2. There is no "typical" politics at Microsoft. If there were, you wouldn't be able to figure that out in your first year.
3. Take Microsoft "market cap" down? What does that even mean? :)
4. Principals are not 64+, we all know that band starts at 63. ;)
5. Microsoft should have bought RIM a year ago, not Palm now.
6. Yahoo hires all coming in at 66-68? I hear cackles from the once acquired crowd. (At least one acquired CEO hase come in lower than 66.)
I could go on, but I would have to page down.
Looking around the web today, I saw this article by Walt Mossberg: .
.
The really painful thing about that is how he [accurately] describes the "clean install" process and how there's no convenient way to copy your programs, user settings, etc. over to the new install.
The Windows fiasco of installers, the registry, DLLs, etc. should have ended years ago. On the Mac, the vast majority of software isn't "installed" ... you just drag and drop a program (basically one file) to wherever you want, including a different computer. I would happily trade all of Win7's purported improvements for a sane way to manage the software that's on your computer.
Many posters have advised employees to leave if they know they are being fired. There is one thing to remember in that case: resigning means you can't sue for wrongful termination.
My plan as they prepare to walk me to the door is to keep my pocket-hidden digital audio recorder running.
>My plan as they prepare
>to walk me to the door is
>to keep my pocket-hidden
>digital audio recorder
>running.
I can tell you are absolutely a loser.
My plan as they prepare to walk me to the door is to keep my pocket-hidden digital audio recorder running.
Jesus, grow up! Quit whining and take control of your life, for a change. Seriously, what do you think you will accomplish?
As others have noted, there is such an incredible sense of entitlement and victimization on this forum, it is nauseating. Have you people ever worked anywhere else in your life? You'll find, very quickly, that most high tech companies are almost exactly like Microsoft.
I'd guess you had better be prepared for a life of dissapointment.
I already have a job offer from another big company in same region.
Take it. There's no point to sticking around when you know your manager is planning to get rid of you. Ever.
-jcr
resigning means you can't sue for wrongful termination.
NEVER plan on winning a wrongful termination suit. Even if they're dumb enough to can you for your race or some other blatantly illegal reason, how much time and how much money can you afford to spend on litigation?
-jcr
re: Office Live Small Business & free domains for life.
I'll bet within a week, we see something in the press that says we've "changed our plans" and decided to honor our original commitments.
We like to make really stupid decisions without thinking through the PR shitstorm that will be generated, wait until the press & public ream us, and then we go and do the right thing.
That's MS Marketing 101.
I see a lot of mention of "principals" at microsoft. What exactly is a principal? How do you become one? What's the signigicance? What levels are they?
My plan as they prepare to walk me to the door is to keep my pocket-hidden digital audio recorder running.
If you are located in Washington State I believe you would be breaking the law to surreptitiously record the conversation. See RCW 9.73.030
"Intercepting, recording, or divulging private communication -- Consent required -- Exceptions."
Opening Microsoft Stores is not about better customer service or showcasing our brilliant products or competing with Apple. It is about doing the only thing that KT is vaguely familiar with, running a retail operation.
This is similar to MS employees changing roles, we try to solve the problems in the new job using the tools we learnt in the previous role. KT is doing exactly the same thing and it is bound to fail.
> at Saturday, August 08, 2009 10:26:00 PM, anonymous said:
> If I found out you had accepted my offer but were really just putting it in your back pocket to decide whether you liked the latest reorg at your current job, getting a 10% wouldn't be an issue -- you'd be out on your ear.
As a msft employee, I can only say -- good riddance.
Why the vitriol? Are you upset at a lack of employee loyalty here? How much loyalty does an employee own an employer that just laid off ~5,000 employees while netting around a BILLION DOLLARS per MONTH? I'd say we need to come to grips with the fact that we are essentially all hourly contractors, even with the facade of salaried. The company has no loyalty to the employees, which is okay I guess. They pay me money, I do work for that money. Unless you get on the fast track, there is little hope of getting rich at Microsoft. It is just another paying gig, in what will be for a most, a series of paying gigs (although with nice medical bennies).
Think of it another way: this dude is considering outsourcing to another employer, just like Microsoft outsourced their STEs a few years back. It's all just business, nothing personal.
"---happy, just got promoted!!
base pay +5% bonus 1+5% stock 225%
:-)"
FALSE -- these numbers aren't disclosed until 9/15, no exceptions. It's also a virtual impossibility that you'd be promoted right now instead of with your review -- I've never heard of such a thing in 15 years with the company.
"4. Principals are not 64+, we all know that band starts at 63. ;)"
FALSE -- Principal starts at 65.
MS is the only company in which Intranet is slower than the Internet. We have one awesome IT department.
bwahhhahahah! To quote Aretha:
"Oh freedom, freedom, freedom, yeah Freedom!"
~ms1400
this is 100% correct. There's a reason (well, many reasons actually) why principals (64+) are not ranked alongside 59-63.
Principal starts at 65, not 64.
I have finally gotten around to posting an article highlighting at least some of the engineering problems that have troubled me over the years while working in the Windows division.
http://bit.ly/oOUh4
Ironically, one of my conclusions is that Microsoft should try to be LESS of an innovator.
I will take a crack of putting down more of my learnings in future posts. :)
My plan as they prepare to walk me to the door is to keep my pocket-hidden digital audio recorder running.
I hope you are familiar with RCW 9.73.030.
My plan as they prepare to walk me to the door is to keep my pocket-hidden digital audio recorder running.
Bad idea: gross misdemeanor. Washington is an "all parties must consent" state.
"My plan as they prepare to walk me to the door is to keep my pocket-hidden digital audio recorder running."
Good luck with that Kim-Osabe. However, keep in mind the issue of employment-at-will, a doctrine embraced by the majority of states in the US. That is to say, you can quit anytime, and the employer can fire you anytime for any or no reason. And the best of luck finding a lawyer willing to take on Microsoft!
Since I am fairly new to MSFT and do not understand the levels clearly - what does L60-L61-L62 mean in comparison to L63-L64-L65.
Does it mean Director level positions are 63, 64, 65 & Manager level at 60, 61, 62.
I also understand these levels are stock levels and not necessarily based on your grade in the organisation. Am I right?
"And the best of luck finding a lawyer willing to take on Microsoft!"
Um, lawyers take on MS every day. Most times they even win.
Since I am fairly new to MSFT and do not understand the levels clearly.
If you are an employee, you have access to a very nice website that explains everything for you in great detail.
If you are not an employee, then kindly curl up and die.
I can only hope that Mini will not allow any replies that make the trolling here any worse.
Whats up with the Partner Engineer Managers in Search and Ad center
I mean how can every manager be a Partner there.
BTW who decides who becomes a partner
I see a lot of mention of "principals" at microsoft. What exactly is a principal? How do you become one? What's the signigicance? What levels are they?
There are many levels at Microsoft, and this one was introduced a few years ago. It applies to people 64 and above.
I know some people here are saying it's only 65+, however I am aware of at least 2 organizations (MSIT being one) and at least 8 people personally who are level 64 and their title says Principal.
As far stock levels go, it is:
59-62
63-64 (Senior band)
65-67 (Principal band, plus PUMS, Directors, etc)
68+ (GMs and above)
So, there isn't one standard at the company in terms of Senior and Principal at the moment, at least as far their addressbook title goes.
But basically, an IC Principal means someone who's a SME (subject matter expert) at the org and possibly division level. This is someone who leads design and architecture efforts and is looked upon to be a technical lead on a project.
If you want to become one, either pick the manager track (easier) or get really good at something if you're on the IC track.
Folks, w.r.t. levels, review details, etc.: if you really do work at Microsoft, you are in for a world of hurt.
You owe it to yourself to review the HR materials, past Mini posts, and have a discussion with your manager to understand how pay, performance, promotions, and levels work at the company.
For everyone who says Principal starts at 65, it depends on your discipline. Check http://hrweb for other disciplines: for example, all CSPs in IT Operations have Principal being IC5: level 64, 65. Software Development has Principal being IC5 of 65, 66, 67. So, it depends on your discipline as to what Principal means as far as level.
In light of recent news reports that the economy is turning around, I'm wondering how fellow 1400ers and others hit in subsequent layoffs are faring of late.
I was walked for "poor performance" last week without being able to see my review. The review finally arrived in the mail and is full of fallacies. Is there anything I could do or should I just let it go?
BIG Question -- What are we doing to drive technologies in the enterprise space when in direct competition with IBM, Oracle etc.? Windows 7 is a major release, but what will we do to dispel the perception that we are no more than a desktop company in search of "search"?
FALSE -- these numbers aren't disclosed until 9/15, no exceptions. It's also a virtual impossibility that you'd be promoted right now instead of with your review -- I've never heard of such a thing in 15 years with the company.
You're wrong. The numbers will be disclosed before 9/15. I believe 9/1 is the date managers can start sharing. The numbers for most people will be a lot smaller than what was posted. Last year, people were complaining that their raises were less than COLA. This year, there are no raises for the vast majority of employees, and the bonuses for normal employees will be less than COLA.
Meanwhile, I'm sure the execs and partners "exceeded" their expectations and will be grossly overpaid.
As for the promo, it seems likely from their post that it is happening WITH their review, and not as an out of band promo.
Since I am fairly new to MSFT and do not understand the levels clearly - what does L60-L61-L62 mean in comparison to L63-L64-L65.
Mini - Please don't allow explanations of this here. An intranet search will reveal this info. If they're an employee and they can't search the intranet, they're one of the ones we should get rid of!
On the opening of Microsoft Stores.... wow, guess SteveB lost that one to KT. Steve was pretty clear and adamant at a Server and Tools meeting last fall that he thought that was a bad idea.
On the level confusion, here is some clarity.
Levels 8,9,10... Only posted by folks who left MSFT 10 years ago or more. Dinosaur alert!
Levels 55-59: Admins or deer caught in headlights.
Level 60: Glossy eyed new college hire hotshot.
Level 61: Remember Saving Private Ryan. Level 61 is a 60 who survived the Normandy landing scene.
New Level 62: Confident hard charger, nothing can stop her.
Old Level 62: Very bitter about not being a "Senior" yet. Constantly scanning titles in address book to find inferior 63s.
Level 63 "Senior" band: Yeah! Mountain top scene from "Sound of Music".
Level 64 - Yawn. This climbing the ladder thing takes for ever.
Level 64 - 2 year later. Very confident you pissed off someone in the council of elders, no hope ever of making it into the Inner Circle.
Level 65: PRINCIPAL: You've now made it to the final battle scene at the bridge in Saving Private Ryan. Note to self, many comrades are no longer around or are still back at the beach in Normandy.
I'll let someone with more experience continue on from here. :)
Has anyone seen this article on Seeking Alpha? I think it nails the problem with Microsoft dead on! Mini... you must have helped him with this :)
http://seekingalpha.com/article/155946-microsoft-whistling-in-the-dark?
"What exactly is a principal?"
It's like making "partner" in a law firm.
"How do you become one?"
Most often by answering "that's super terrific" or "will do" to any request given by a superior, no matter how harebrained. Occasionally, by being very good.
"What's the signigicance?"
BIG money. Little accountability.
OK, the chatter is starting to growth in frequency and detail regarding the next set of layoffs. I'm hearing October, after quarterly report, and I'm hearing deep cuts, like 10k. Anyone have anything additional?
Guys, you think Mini got the ax in the recent round of layoffs? awfully quiet here ...
For general engineering (Dev, Test, PM)
Level 59-60, a I
Level 61-62, a II
Level 63-64, Senior
Level 65+, Principal
Level 68+, Partner
FALSE -- these numbers aren't disclosed until 9/15, no exceptions. It's also a virtual impossibility that you'd be promoted right now instead of with your review -- I've never heard of such a thing in 15 years with the company.
You are are right about your other points, but as a lead I know you get those award numbers way before 9/15 and there are no hard rules about disclosing them. My old manager made it a policy to give out the numbers as soon as the review model locked. I appreciated that alot as an IC and now I try to do the same. And also, I have seen 3 off-cycle promotions since I've been with the company. One was basically bribe to keep a guy with the team (didn't work), one was a guy who was clearly underlevelled when hired, and the last was a lady who got promoted to test manager very quickly when the old one got asked to leave.
Fuck it, might as well throw it in. I have also seen 2 double promotions since I've been at the company. Both of those were for people who were considered underlevelled but were being put into lead positions. And back when we used numbered reviews I knew one guy who actually got a 5.
And to be clear, I personally knew each of the people involved here. These are not rumors I heard from someone else who heard about it from their friend's manager. Anyway this is all obviously exceedinly rare but it happens.
"OK, the chatter is starting to growth in frequency and detail regarding the next set of layoffs. I'm hearing October, after quarterly report, and I'm hearing deep cuts, like 10k. Anyone have anything additional?"
STOP IT.
The chatter started growing in frequency and detail immediately prior to the last quarterly results until it hit a fever pitch, and it was all revealed to be absolute bullshit nonsense -- there were no layoffs.
We're not going through a round of deep cuts in October. Shut your pie hole and move-on, that horse has been beaten to death.
confirming existence of the mythical "5.0" review. One of my mentors has one from 10 years ago. I've seen the paper and new the GM who had to sign off on it. They did exist.
[ex-softie]
To the poster: "I was walked for "poor performance" last week without being able to see my review. The review finally arrived in the mail and is full of fallacies. Is there anything I could do or should I just let it go? Wednesday, August 12, 2009 2:09:00 PM"
This is a common tactic.
While you contemplate your next legal move, check out the laws posted by the State of Washington Bureau of Labor and Industries, assuming you're in the Washington State area. Per law, I believe, the company must allow you access to your personnel file once per year, for up to two years after you are terminated. Additionally, I believe, you’re allowed to include any reasonable written rebuttal that the company must keep in that same file.
http://www.lni.wa.gov/WorkplaceRights/files/policies/esc7.pdf
You can contact the external HR Alias you were given when you left, and politely ask for your file, citing the laws of the State.
I received my file about 2 weeks after I reminded HR of this law. No 'surprises' were included. Never had a bad review in 10 years, sometimes 4.5s, but given some pending actions at the Partner level, I needed a copy for my files.
Good luck with that Kim-Osabe.
Best. Retort. In a long while.
Recording conversations without mutual consent is illegal in Washington State, as others have said. But I suppose there's little to prevent you from recording and then using the recording to make accurate written notes later, then erasing the recording, if you're not in a position to take lots of notes and your memory is poor.
Regarding lawyers willing to take on MS, it's not necessary to be so pessimistic. (Details omitted to protect those who succeeded and can't discuss it.)
As a past recipient of an out of band promotion, I'll confirm that it can happen, although it's probably unusual a month before the usual date for promos.
Anonymous said...
I was walked for "poor performance" last week without being able to see my review. The review finally arrived in the mail and is full of fallacies. Is there anything I could do or should I just let it go?
Wednesday, August 12, 2009 2:09:00 PM
---------------
you are not able to do anything except file a rebuttal.
I just got shown the door today too, randonmly. Mostly around "insubordination" since he said "I did not get approval to work from home" ...
which became the stick to push HR all over me around being such a bad employee vs. the chain recognizing we have a personality / style different which makes us incompatible.
Thanks others in the group, you are next ... 100 heads have to be gone by 9/15
What kind of career path can Program manager have outside microsoft.
I find its a very unique role to MS(few companies like Amazon etc)
I want to learn from recently laid off PMs on how thier career is progressing now?
Several Anonymous people agreed with this statement.
"...If I were an exec I would fire most of the program managers and just have a handful of release managers per org. That will not only cut costs but also speed up execution.
The program managers are completely incompetent and useless..."
I completely disagree and I hope others do as well. From my perpsective there needs to be a balanance of skills (Dev, Test, PM, UX, others as needed) to successfully ship a product or service that users LOVE and would pay for. Firing most of the PMs is a silly response.
Regarding efficiency, in some groups PM is leading the charge to scrum/agile and Dev's prefer to remain with a "70s waterfall model". This is somewhat related to Mini's post on July 12 2009.
One last comment regarding Carol Bartz. She said "...when I say product people we sort of had a one product management person for every three engineers. So we had a lot of people running around telling engineers what to do..." Product Management, not Program Management. At MS PMs are Engineers.
The reviews are in. Managers can now go into the performance tool and see what their direct reports received.
Managers have from 8/15 - 9/15 to complete the process with their directs.
Mini, can you start a new topic so people can post their numbers?
The review finally arrived in the mail and is full of fallacies.
Um, do you even know what a fallacy is? ^_^
"BTW who decides who becomes a partner"
Well, the partners are a kind of coven. There is a lavish, secret bunker under Building 35 where the ritual is held. All the existing partners wear red robes, and the initiates wear yellow. They drink Kool-Aid and burn Linux distros in effigy. The incoming partners then file one by one to plant a wet one on SteveB's ass. And it's done.
Actually I wish the above was true, because it would make more sense than the current system ... I mean look around you. What justifies paying seven figure incomes to these people? The stock price? I totally get stock awards replacing options for L67 and below. But what incentive is there for partners in the current scheme to drive the company forward? MS should bring back stock options for executives. And don't forget that there is an $80 million trough for the top 11 pigs to dig their snouts in.
"BIG Question -- What are we doing to drive technologies in the enterprise space when in direct competition with IBM, Oracle etc.?"
"Windows 7 is a major release, but what will we do to dispel the perception that we are no more than a desktop company in search of "search"?"
Answer to Q #1 Nothing
Answer to Q #2 Absolutely fucking nothing
WRT #1: This is why Larry Ellison got paid 1/2 $ billion + and SteveB 400k. You gets what you pays for.
WRT #2: This is why Schmidt, Page & Brin occupy the top echelon of planet-wide rich people.
To the guy w/ the manager preparing to "walk him out" and a current job offer: Don't give two weeks notice. Give two hours.
Employment at MS is "at will," a fact that is emphasized about every 20 minutes by HR. Well guess what? This cuts both ways.
Consider when it comes time to walk you out, you're gonna get about two minutes notice.
Confirming off-cycle promotions. I got one at mid-year in a new position. It does happen.
Since I am fairly new to MSFT and do not understand the levels clearly - what does L60-L61-L62 mean in comparison to L63-L64-L65.
Mini - Please don't allow explanations of this here. An intranet search will reveal this info. If they're an employee and they can't search the intranet, they're one of the ones we should get rid of!
What are you so afraid of someone asking for information? It takes awhile to learn to navigate the Microsoft guantlet of web sites, Sharepoint sites, etc to find the one with the information you want. A redesign can make it difficult to find things for awhile again.
Whats up with the Partner Engineer Managers in Search and Ad center? I mean how can every manager be a Partner there. BTW who decides who becomes a partner?
Let me jump on this "Yahooing of Microsoft".
A lot of the cited Partner Engineer Managers are coming from outside, most of them from Yahoo, at a very high price (besides the salary, you cannot imagine the signing bonuses for such partners!). Most of them are being hired via very selective interview loops, upon direct "recommendation" by Qi Lu. Would you say no-hire to someone recommended by your great-grand-manager?
There is also something worse than these PEMs: the huge amount of Yahoo ex-employees being hired at Principal level. Most of these are nothing more than kids that got into Yahoo about 5 years ago and now hit it big. If you joined Microsoft about 5 years ago, and worked like a horse to get to Senior level, prepare for a big surprise. It would be far better to join Yahoo, help it fail, and now join Microsoft at Principal level!
What are the real chances of these ex-Yahoos succeeding at Microsoft? None. Just like the ex-Great Plains, ex-aQuantive, etc., these people will soon learn that they are in a risky position, and fly away to some other safer team inside the company. Hired at Principal levels due to their experience, soon they will move away to another area in which they have no experience, to manage there many experienced 10+ years seniors, who wouldn't move up because they aren't Principals yet!
Re: Seeking Alpha. This is a result of Ballmer/Microsoft's boneheaded maneuver to declare "war" on Google and Apple. If, in the public's eye, Microsoft just made desktop operating systems and office software, it wouldn't be getting slaughtered by these sorts of articles. Why declare a war when in the best-case scenario it will take many years for you to win decisively and worst-case your offerings are a joke.
Have any groups started to do performance reviews yet? Ours aren't scheduled to be handed out until Sept.
@OK, the chatter is starting to growth in frequency and detail regarding the next set of layoffs. I'm hearing October, after quarterly report, and I'm hearing deep cuts, like 10k. Anyone have anything additional?
I have heard the same and probably a coincidence but if you multiply 9000 with .17(17%) it becomes 15300. The initial rumors in before the first round of layoffs all talked about the same thing. So 15300 - 5000 = 10300.
Review result is out, check https://managepoint/
-> Organization
-> Employee Profile
-> View Contribution Ranking & Commitment Rating History
-> Review history
I was walked for "poor performance" last week without being able to see my review. The review finally arrived in the mail and is full of fallacies. Is there anything I could do or should I just let it go?
Keep your confidence that you are good and then just move on. This may be hard time but wasting time and resources with these fallacies may worsen your situation.
I have one confusion. As they have terminated you why they had sent that hell review paper? I guess because your manager just wanted to aggravate your pain.
At MS PMs are Engineers.
That's the best joke I have heard. Thanks for the laugh
Each person who consented to audio and/or video surveillance when you signed on; raise your hand!
Seems that layoff waves have come to an end. How about the openings? As a previously fired employee is it a good time to try the openings now?
the chatter is starting to growth in frequency and detail regarding the next set of layoffs. I'm hearing October, after quarterly report, and I'm hearing deep cuts, like 10k. Anyone have anything additional?
Job security no longer exists in the new economy. Who cares if there's chatter about layoffs. We should all be prepared to lose our jobs regardless if we are Microsoft employees, Yahoo employees or an employee of a random small business. Be prepared to lose your job at any time layoff rumors or not. That's just reality now. I'd tell anyone reading these posts the same thing as an employee of any company
1) Update your resume and ensure it's ready to go at all times
2) Increase your savings so you can better handle loss of income
3) Stop panicking because there's nothing any of us can do about it other than be prepared.
Let me jump on this "Yahooing of Microsoft"...
You should call it Yaruining of Microsoft. One thing Yahoo employees should understand is that nobody at Microsoft wishes you anything other than success, as unlikely as that is. It is not your fault that you are being hired into Microsoft without the typical Microsoft interviews. The only ones to blame are the Microsoft HR guidelines, which insist on this absurdity of making lateral moves for internal people, even if an internal level 62 is the best candidate for a level 65 position. I myself have been told many times in interview loops that, if I was an external candidate then I would be hired on the spot for positions 2 or 3 levels above my current one.
"At MS PMs are Engineers"
Wha?????
The op likely is one of these blind zombies. This is exactly why most of them need to be moved on..
"I was walked for "poor performance" last week without being able to see my review. The review finally arrived in the mail and is full of fallacies. Is there anything I could do or should I just let it go?"
Keep your confidence that you are good and then just move on. This may be hard time but wasting time and resources with these fallacies may worsen your situation.
Goes without saying, but sometimes people who get walked to the door actually deserve it -- you'll never hear anyone say "wow, I was the shittiest employee ever -- I sure got what I deserved!"
Instead of just burying your head in the sand and telling yourself how awesome you are, make sure you don't need to also think long and hard about what to do differently next time to prevent the same outcome.
At MS PMs are Engineers.
Mini - We've beat the test/dev/PM thing to death. Please don't let it start again.
BTW, I've yet to meet a PM at MS that I would call an Engineer. They mainly just kiss ass internally or externally, and then perform release management duties. And I do think we need people to kiss ass, I just don't want people making the mistake of calling them designers or engineers.
"I myself have been told many times in interview loops that, if I was an external candidate then I would be hired on the spot for positions 2 or 3 levels above my current one."
ORLY, many times, 'eh? How many internal loops have you been on?
And who were these clueless managers? We generally don't make a habit of telling our internal interviewees who have just completed loops that we're not paying them what they're worth, even when it's true.
I smell delusions of grandeur.
Is this end of MS office?
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10308374-56.html
Is it time for the review post to appear?
I received my numbers today and wow, high performers are being treated right - I wonder about some of my less fortunate co-workers, the models must be skewed in a very specific way to make this happen.
Goes without saying, but sometimes people who get walked to the door actually deserve it -- you'll never hear anyone say "wow, I was the shittiest employee ever -- I sure got what I deserved!"
Instead of just burying your head in the sand and telling yourself how awesome you are, make sure you don't need to also think long and hard about what to do differently next time to prevent the same outcome.
,,,
come on, some good people get impacted by lack of politics .. thsi is not a merit based company during these times and you can deny that all you want.
- yes some people are deserving ot be shit canned
- yes some people were not deserving
- we tend to "fit for team" as meaning "fit for mS" and that is unhealthy.
There are many people who are in a wrong "style" fit in the group but need to get to another place. When that employee tries to be open/honest with their manager they get dinged as a disloyal SOB. Why? The manager simply a) doesnt ack the issue and b) does not want ot lose headcount.
Give it a rest
Have any groups started to do performance reviews yet? Ours aren't scheduled to be handed out until Sept.
Get mine later this week.
Hm. Is it just me, or is everyone in the Standards of Business Conduct (and all our achievement posters, and our board meetings...) now old?
Perhaps the fact that the average age of MSFT has soared, if not yet doubled has something to do with the stagnation of our company, and the loss of our status as a hungry, vicious beast (which was, I think, the most fun I've had in a corporation).
Generally caring about stability of the next paycheck (and not getting sued) over profit, technological superiority, and outright market cojones is, for me, proof that MSFT will never truly evade the IBM fate. (Mind you, I do not mean the IBM that bet hundreds of billions on market initiatives, back when hundreds of billions was enough to dent the national debt)
Perhaps there is some way around it, but no other corp. seems to have managed yet, without being spun off, or split up.
BTW, I've yet to meet a PM at MS that I would call an Engineer. They mainly just kiss ass internally or externally, and then perform release management duties. And I do think we need people to kiss ass, I just don't want people making the mistake of calling them designers or engineers.
Kiss My....*Ahem*
I am an API PM who came from Test, then Dev, and hopped to PM to set straight some horrible design work that was giving all of us the shaft.
Yes, there are ass-kissers. No, we aren't all that way. Gain some perspective, eh?
Goes without saying, but sometimes people who get walked to the door actually deserve it -- you'll never hear anyone say "wow, I was the shittiest employee ever -- I sure got what I deserved!"
Lots of people have already explained in this forum that not all the poor performers are actually incompetent. But still some of you msftie guys have this persumptious over generalization. I hope one day you will get such treatment.
Walking someone to the door is not a good decorum. Microsoft should tell bye people in a better way. For myself I do not regret as much for my lost msft job as I was offended with the exit formalities. I guess most of the cases people who get such treatment just those poor ones who failed to achieve a friendly relation ( and sometime ended with a hostile relation) with his manager. Yep this incident is a failure for those poor guy who could not achieve such a friendly relation.
I can tell you another incident of one of my acquiantances (who is genuinely a poor performer) was put under a performance improvement program. But in the meeting her manager just told her not to worry at all. He will take care of this thing. And she survived this pruning process. Ok let me ignore this innocent case. But there are lots of genuinely undercompetent people who are promoted in Microsoft by some unfair ways like licking the a** of management chain, exaggegerating their meager accomplishments etc. For a guy who get 10% rating at Microsoft review most probably he is weak but in a lots of cases he may be actually a competent person. Again for a guy who get 20% exceeded rating at Microsoft review most probably he is good but in a lot of cases he is just an underqualified who was blessed by his management. Although according to the guideline provided in Performance@Microsoft the review process should be objective but naturally it has lots of subjective influence from the managers and in a lot of cases these managers fail to treat the people fairly.
"Seems that layoff waves have come to an end. How about the openings? As a previously fired employee is it a good time to try the openings now?"
Why on earth would you want to go back?
Curious.
I'm hearing that Bonuses have been cut severely at this annual review. Several former colleagues (EPM-Field Sales) are sending me their resumes. Lot's of irony if all that bonus money was spent on the severance packages in Jan & May.
Oh and the downfall of MSFT happened when Orlando Ayala took over most of EPG for N. & S. America and Sinofsky was running office. There was so much internal focus in EPG and Sinofsky really blew it with the Office Software Assurance value message.
"Most of the Microsoft employees come to work at 11 AM and leave at 4:30 PM. During this time they concentrate more on their personal businesses."
Wow I don't know what employees you refer to, but my husband works his ass off as do most of the people that he works with. 12 hour days and weekend time too.
I got let goo too.
I am getting harrassed over a laptop even though I said it would be returned once i am back from vacation. They axed me as a surprised gesture before my vacation.
Thank you passive/aggressive guardians.
Who decides to make a partner?....
Boy, you are green aren't you? I didn't mean at MS, but just green in general. You need to have strong elbows, you need to be in the right subsidiary, you need to know the right people to become a partner at microsoft. Recently, my friends at IDC talked about many examples of partners there and oh boy that confirms the theory! Less we say the better :--) Right?
I myself have been told many times in interview loops that, if I was an external candidate then I would be hired on the spot for positions 2 or 3 levels above my current one.
give me a break. I'm tired of this self-agrandizing idiots. If what you're saying is true, quit then apply. good luck , you will need it.
even if an internal level 62 is the best candidate for a level 65 position. I myself have been told many times in interview loops that, if I was an external candidate then I would be hired on the spot for positions 2 or 3 levels above my current one.
Dude - why are you sticking to your current job then? Arent you aggressive enough to prove what you're stating here? Either you really deserve level 65 or you dont & by continuing in your current job - I'm actually inclined to believe the latter. So either make the move or shut the hell up.
I got my review #'s.
L64
Exceeded/70
Bonus $18K
Stock $30K
Sinofsky model is simple. Get 1000 people and let them do work worth 100 and really really go out of the way to make sure thats all they are allowed to do. Works great if you are in a commanding position like Windows and Office and dont want people to screw it up for you, not so much if you actually have competition.
I have heard chatters of deep cuts in windows/ dev div org around oct 22nd time frame, any idea where this might be heading to??
Wow I don't know what employees you refer to, but my husband works his ass off as do most of the people that he works with. 12 hour days and weekend time too.
Are you completely sure he's working that many hours including weekends!? You better double check that.
(about being told they would be a hire if they were an external candidate)
Dude - why are you sticking to your current job then? Arent you aggressive enough to prove what you're stating here? Either you really deserve level 65 or you dont & by continuing in your current job - I'm actually inclined to believe the latter. So either make the move or shut the hell up.
Yeah, like ANYTHING at MS is that simple. Just the process alone would make it near impossible. It would be easier (though still near impossible) to convince some senior manager in that org that you were really the right person for the job, and get them to stick their neck out and suggest that you get hired in at a level much higher than you're at currently.
But I've heard this same comment many times from coworkers interviewing in other groups. Makes me think that those groups are stupid. If the employee is qualified and you can hire them in at L62 to do the work of an L65, why wouldn't you do it?
The whole leveling process is so damn ridiculous. No matter how many times they try to fix it, there is not and will never be equivalent leveling across all orgs.
I have fired people before, and I have had people that realize that they've been getting away with horrible performance for a while.
But if you are fired because you are not good at your job, and you did not see it coming, then the manager is making up some random reason to term you. Ask them for specific examples in front of the HR rep.
Is this end of MS office?
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10308374-56.html
Nope. Probably gonna mean we write a big fat check though.
Can someone please let our overseas colleagues know that the meaning of "kissing ass" is significantly different than that of "licking ass" ?
It really disturbs me to see the latter mentioned here so often.
Is it time for the review post to appear?
I received my numbers today and wow, high performers are being treated right - I wonder about some of my less fortunate co-workers, the models must be skewed in a very specific way to make this happen.
I'll second this. I wasn't expecting much because of the current situation, but I had a really great year. I definitely got treated well.
If you are internal candidate and the team seems interested in hiring you. How long does it take to get an offer? What is going on between the time they "yes" to the time you get the offer?
I myself have been told many times in interview loops that, if I was an external candidate then I would be hired on the spot for positions 2 or 3 levels above my current one.
give me a break. I'm tired of this self-agrandizing idiots. If what you're saying is true, quit then apply. good luck , you will need it.
Sorry to disappoint you: I managed to get a position in a large other company in the Seattle area, then quit Microsoft, then got back at level 65 two years ago. Microsoft is probably the company with the best technical people I will ever work with. If only they wouldn’t make so many assumptions. I never wrote I didn’t do it… No need to act like a troll.
Answering another comment about why a hiring manager would tell you that you would be hired at a higher level, if coming from the outside: because you would eventually tell one or more hiring managers that you wouldn't accept a position, after receiving an offer. They would then explain why their hands were tied and they wouldn’t hire you at the announced level, despite having interviewed you after informationals (it is not atypical to accept to interview someone 1 or 2 levels below the announced level).
My strategy at Microsoft when moving has been to do about a dozen informationals and then choose 3 or 4 interview loops. When moving, I never got less then 3 offers, and then put one “on wait”, while letting the two best teams know about each other and then compete to have the best offer. At times, despite the HR guidelines, that included a promotion during the transfer.
My original comment was pointing out the fact that Microsoft loses a lot by having this HR guideline of internal moves being lateral, while you can hire an external candidate at any level (again: exceptions exist, but the guideline is there). Suddenly, learning to interview well becomes more important than delivering results, denying a lot of longtime employees the opportunity to have a better career at Microsoft. Anyone coming from the outside, via acquisitions or not, can immediately get to a level in which many internal people would deliver more, if given the chance.
"Most of the Microsoft employees come to work at 11 AM and leave at 4:30 PM. During this time they concentrate more on their personal businesses."
I'd love to know which group this is? My group is at least 9 hours per day in the office, and checking email after hours.
"Guys please stop with killing Winmo. Let experts do their job"
These experts are not doing their jobs. Some parts of WinMo are very inefficient. Ever heard of dedicated teams in WinMo commercialization? They are bloated (look at Dev, Test Orgs in large teams), delivering very little, creating noise, often disrupting normal functioning of other teams. Managing up, and blame game is day to day work of leadership teams.
Slowly reducing role of these teams to read only code is the correct strategy being adopted by management.
"I am an API PM who came from Test, then Dev, and hopped to PM to set straight some horrible design work that was giving all of us the shaft.
Yes, there are ass-kissers. No, we aren't all that way. Gain some perspective, eh?"
perspective??? you need to gain some reality, eh..
I am level 59 IC. I have been given Achieved - 10% this review.
I was under MANAGER-A during 3/4th of the time and with my current MANAGER-B 1/4 of time. MANAGER-A although my direct manager was at a skip level and did not actually function as my manager and kept assigning me in filler projects. The end result was many of the applications I built (which were bug free, deliverd on time, high quality etc) did not actually get released. Some times the PM will drive the next "high roi" initiative which was not really needed and didnt take me anywhere.
MANAGER-A got demoted as well. Also there were org-wide reorgs. I have been re-orged to a MANAGER-B now. This means that the old MANAGER-A(who got demoted) did not care about me during review since I dont report to him anymore. He dropped the ball on me.
I think I got "Achieved-10%" due to the below:
3) 90% of your peers are contributing more than you. Maybe they have projects where it's easier to contribute more, maybe they're executing better than you (getting more done), maybe they're more proactive (creating their own projects), maybe ...
I believe that the primary reason of my problem is that my MANAGER-A did not deliver. Yes, he got demoted, but I am being made a scapegoat as well on this.
Is my career doomed with getting a 10%? I dont think I can ever move within Microsoft unless I get promoted in my current team.
Is there any way to get me out of 10% in this review?
Please help!
True or False? KT flies everywhere he goes on a private jet, dragging along 5 or 6 other execs to meetings they don't need to attend? (so he meets the criteria for hiring a private jet, while the rest of the company fly like cattle at the back of the cheapest available airline)
After reading what people posted here, I just want to say a couple of things
1)I think MS is a decent place to work in. Some orgs are better than others
2)Smart work and hard work pay off...in the long run.
3) MS is by means the best place to work for in IT. GOOGLE is, at least according to Business Week's ranking
4) We don't have to work at MS. If you feel you are not respected. Find another job and leave. Why even consider wasting another second here and thinking about suing the company? MS is a big company with an army of lawyers. Do you really think you can win this? If I were you, and if I felt I did decent solid work, I would compose an email to Bill Gates, Steve Balmer, CC your director, and your entire org , but of course, in the email, include all the data point. And just walk out. This is possibly the best vengeance you can take on MS. And I think you should because it is within your rights to.
4) Don't feel bitter. If you feel you got sagged because your manager is an asshole. Then don't even talk to him, don't even waste any of your energy on him. Walk away and be the better man/woman :)
5) I agree with some people on Search and bring Qi Lu here. Ok we see traffic rate increase in SEARCH, but that is because we paid 800 million dollars for Ads and Campaign. So we are buying the traffic. Of course we all worked very hard for the brand launch. What I am afraid of is Qi Lu has brought so many people at principal level from Yahoo. Do those people really deliver the goods?
5) Quite honestly, I haven't had a very good impression of Qi. What has he done. What is his role in making Search the dominant number 2 player in the market? I work in Search and I want Search to succeed. A successful Search engine doesn't mean it will take over Google, but it means at least we will get 20% of market share in the next 3 years. Qi couldn't even speak English properly.
How do you expect someone at a senior VP level to represent the most invested product in our company properly if he can't even give a decent interview. At least Steve Ballmer speaks English fluently.
Where is the annual review post mini.
I am an API PM who came from Test, then Dev, and hopped to PM to set straight some horrible design work that was giving all of us the shaft.
---
Well you know what, there is a principle PM who is in former teamwho was a dev ... he jumped over to PM to "have more influence" but in reality so he could kiss ass and be a stronger technical PM than what the team had. While that is a good thing its awful since all he does is a) kiss ass and b) threaten by brow beating stronger technical PMs who have come in and are junior level
Throw in that he is bi-polar PHD type is even ice on the cake.
marc :)
So just as a heads up...I am sure the layoffs are more than likely over, but those who did get the severance package should actually be thankful.
I know that sounds odd, but now the real hard messages are coming out at review.
Yes I received that hard message...not in the fact that I got a horrible review (I got an acheived), but reading the tea leaves it appears that if I don't find another gig my days as an acheived will be numbered and hence my tenure at MS.
While this is not necessarily a bad thing to get people moving to a new gig and re-energize their juices...my point here is that these hard discussions are being mandated from above (I had this confirmed by a Lead Program Manager who is a peer to my boss) are now happening and those who get purged, will not be getting that severance package.
So in the end maybe this is a good thing for the company (I have been at MS for 4 years and I bear no animosity if things don't work out moving forward--I will be eternally grateful for all that I have learned and acheived in my career at MS), but I will not go as far to say that all folks are being treated well...I have seen some of the more Politically motivated moves (not mine but an LCA paralegal who was completely hosed).
My only point is that no one regardless of their ability should be denigrated on their way out. A company can make the hard decisions and still be compassionate.
So all I can say to those who got laid off...I know it sucked, but there are still folks who are likely targetted for termination that won't be getting anything so at least you were given time that these folks won't be getting.
So try to remember that when you complain about the "bad breaks" you got this past spring.
Round 3 of layoffs are coming - by end of September. Code name for layoffs at Microsoft is "Prius". Interally, this round of layoffs is referred to as "prius 3".
To those that are in the bottom 10%, you have two options: 1) leave now and start looking and accept offer, or 2) wait till the layoff comes and take the severance and then look for work. Whatever you do, don't take it personally.
Previous rounds of layoffs have walked out very talented folks. I've known 5 folks that were laid off and I can tell you that they were victims of politics. All were amazing workers who I'd want to work for me if I had a company.
'Wow I don't know what employees you refer to, but my husband works his ass off as do most of the people that he works with. 12 hour days and weekend time too.'
"Are you completely sure he's working that many hours including weekends!? You better double check that."
Ok, Mini, you officially crossed the line. You supposedly moderate these comments but you pass on a cheap shot like that? I don't know which is a bigger asshole, the dipshit that implied her husband is having an affair or you for printing what he said. The one thing that I do know is you're both assholes.
BTW, I work at a group in Microsoft where 12 hour days are common. Anyway, fuck you, you piece of shit. You owe that woman an apology and a deletion of that comment.
"Sinofsky model is simple. Get 1000 people and let them do work worth 100 and really really go out of the way to make sure thats all they are allowed to do. Works great if you are in a commanding position like Windows and Office and dont want people to screw it up for you, not so much if you actually have competition."
Perhaps this is right, but i have seen teams like Mobile, XBox and MSN where 1000 people do 0 people of output and is actually negative for bottomline.
Running on treadmill is great workout but you dont really go forward.
Sinofsky model is simple. Get 1000 people and let them do work worth 100 and really really go out of the way to make sure thats all they are allowed to do.
Are you saying that the Windows org has 10x the number of people it really needs?
If so, you're an idiot.
> Round 3 of layoffs are coming - by end of September. Code name for layoffs at Microsoft is "Prius". Interally, this round of layoffs is referred to as "prius 3".
The end is near! The end is near! Run for the hills!
It's easy to cry wolf and, who knows, you might even be right... Until you show what proof you have, I choose to keep enjoying the end of this nice Seattle summer instead.
BTW, I work at a group in Microsoft where 12 hour days are common. Anyway, fuck you, you piece of shit. You owe that woman an apology and a deletion of that comment.
I am a woman, and I would be offended too -- except that in just two years at the company, I saw three marriages break up due to a 'softie's affair outside the office WHILE THEIR SPOUSE WAS WORKING LONG HOURS ON ANOTHER PROJECT ALSO AT MICROSOFT. (Sorry for the shouting, but it really disgusted me that while someone was working horrible hours due to management's requirements and thinking their spouse was also, that was just not the case.)
Are these reasonable numbers?
I got my review #'s.
L64
Exceeded/70
Bonus $18K
Stock $30K
According to the address book, "President Qi Lu" has a "Chief of Staff" - must be a nice L80 position. Does he not have time to manage his own directs?
Comparing today (8/24)'s morning 520 @ 148th traffic accident and jam at 11am with today's traffic subsiding around 4pm, you can only make assumptions about the average working time for today's employees. Hooray, no raises!
According to the address book, "President Qi Lu" has a "Chief of Staff" - must be a nice L80 position. Does he not have time to manage his own directs?
I'm a L67 and I have a Chief of Staff. There are plenty of good reasons to have this position at a GM level or above. The reason that comes to mind first is to manage financial processes.
If you don't have budget and headcount to achieve your commitments at this level of leadership you are sunk, and a good Chief of Staff will go a long way to ensuring you have the resources you need to be successful. You might say this is Finance's job, but they are stocked with B and C players who you can't count on, and ultimately if you are a GM or VP who fails due to poor finance support, you only have yourself to blame.
Bear in mind that the curve applies to GMs and VPs just like it does everyone else, and it is much more cutthroat at that level...you have to be pretty good at playing the game just to get there, and one of the primary levers you have to work with is your budget and headcount. Investing one head in a Chief of Staff to protect this is a good move.
There are lots of other reasons for a Chief of Staff, such as preparing powerpoints and ghost writing communications emails, but in my opinion the management of business reviews and financial/budget/headcount processes is much more compelling.
BTW, I work at a group in Microsoft where 12 hour days are common. Anyway, fuck you, you piece of shit. You owe that woman an apology and a deletion of that comment.
You may want to reconsider your language. You clearly show the negative effects of 12 hours a day. What group is that ? so I never work there, not next to you. Another lady in a separate comment in fact kind of proved the point. See, no need to use foul language.
"Bear in mind that the curve applies to GMs and VPs just like it does everyone else, and it is much more cutthroat at that level...you have to be pretty good at playing the game just to get there,"
The difference between MS and our largest competitors, most of whom are kicking our butt, is that their GM and VPs have to be pretty good first, and then adept at playing the game second. Here, playing the game is the main prerequisite and being pretty good is strictly optional.
The percent of >= L67 let go each year must be small. It would be great for HR to publish that number.
Everyone always ends up a architect, PUM, or GM in another area - but never let go for failure. Ever.
Out of respect for those politicians who are still at the company, and could destroy anyone even though they always fail to deliver, their aliases will not be listed here :-).
Bear in mind that the curve applies to GMs and VPs just like it does everyone else, and it is much more cutthroat at that level...Not the same at all. At the bottom rungs, people are getting single or double digit stock awards. At the GM level, you need to add at least 3 zeros. An ok review for you won't have a major impact on your life.
Plus there are other awards at the VP level. So we won't feel sorry for folks like you.
you have to be pretty good at playing the game just to get there, and one of the primary levers you have to work with is your budget and headcount.
Empire building sucks. We need less of it.
Investing one head in a Chief of Staff to protect this is a good move.So if you have a Chief of Staff to do all of your grunt work, what do you do all day? Sit in your office and "strategize"? Or are you more into "creating synergy"? Figuring out your group's strategy for "software as a service"?
Give me a farking break. Chief of staff is a ridiculous title (the Windows org has one of these people too). Most of the tasks you describe are clearly admin tasks. So give them an appropriate title - executive assistant. Oh wait. You probably have an admin too, don't you? Most people at your level do. So that's 2 people to handle many of your day to day tasks.
This is what we get for hiring a bunch of smart people. They figure out how to screw other people within the system.
480 new hires coming soon for search
http://bellevue.komonews.com/node/29994
Wonder how many people they'll have to lay off from profitable groups to make this happen?
Wonder how many people they'll have to lay off from profitable groups to make this happen?
Don't forget the campus hires coming in all summer long and into the fall.
L66
Merit: 0%
Bonus: 0%
Stock: 0%
U/10 and already U/10 for 2010! I ask you, are reviews really objective? Not going to justify or defend myself. Just reporting what it is. Manager " claims ", he's not going to manage me out.
If Microsoft is serious about WP7, simply allow every developers inside Microsoft to take 3 months off to develop WP7 application.
Allow those applications to be sold in "the MS app store", and will simply split the profit with the employee.
Consider there is 10,000 developers in MS. 10% come up with good app, and 10% of them become useful app, and 10% of them become killer app.
MS will have 10,000 app, 100 useful app, and 10 killers app at the time we launch WP7.
MS can also reserve the right to further develop those app....
It is also a good chance to prove us wrong because ...
If a dev can do solo, there is no manager or PM involve. If they can't create great app, it mean manager and PM are necessary.
PM and manager can become developers again, or they can impire people to join their team, and let developers follow their vision.
So when WM7 is not successful will senior management get axed or will only the rank and file pay the price?
Just sayin, might be a good company meeting question.
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