Microsoft Health Care Pops a Cap in One Big Week
Wow, what got in the corporate water for this week? Coming off the glow of last week's Company Meeting Koolaid we first got hit by the Goldman Sachs downgrade hang-over, then, to channel Mr. Ballmer, "Boom-Boom-Boom!"
- Health care changes on the way.
- Live Labs gets shut down.
- Technical Fellow Gary Flake, one of Microsoft few-TED stars, resigns.
- Technical Fellow Brad Lovering leaves.
- A glassdor.com survey that shows a lowly 50% approval rating for Mr. Ballmer.
- IEB gets re-orged.
- Massive gets shuttered (like we were all looking forward to billboard ads while blowing crap up in Xbox).
- Adobe acquisition rumors.
- Matt Rosoff leaves Directions on Microsoft.
All this right on the eve of Windows Phone 7 being launched. Feels like one big... purge.
As for the Microsoft health plan changes: I haven't personally taken a bunch of time to figure it out yet. I had a fully scheduled Friday and I half listened to the Town Hall while working. My attention lapsed and the next thing I know they are talking about a Health Visa card against our Health Savings Plan we can use for paying our share of a visit to the doctor and roll-overs and portability. I realized I just missed some detailed stuff. Microsoft has set-up internal forums to help the employees figure this all out, so I encourage everyone to utilize that. But in the meantime, a commenter on the previous post added this:
OK, I just watched the Health Care Town Hall replay. Hard thing to do early on a Saturday morning.
Let's see if I have this straight. If I go with the Health Savings Plan:
- All my preventive care is still free (to me). Annual physicals, dental checkups, immunizations, etc. - no charge. Wellness programs are actually beefed up even more.
- For a family of 3+, the most we would have to pay out of pocket annually is $2500.00.
- At the beginning of each year, MS will themselves add $3725 or thereabouts to my Health Savings Account...so MS is more than covering my $2500 obligation anyway.
- Even if I have a catastrophic illness or injury, I'm still ahead $1225.
I hope more insightful minds will follow up to correct any misunderstandings I have about this, but my takeaways from LisaB's deck are:
- Switch to HSP.
- Lose both legs in a snowboarding accident.
- Profit!
A follow-up to that:
Not quite right on the healthcare costs. Worse case scenario for family of 3 is:
- All your preventive care costs are covered 100% by MSFT
- You pay 100% of the first $3,750 in non-preventive costs. This is your deductible.
- After your deductible is paid, you pay 10% of non-preventive costs. This is your co-pay. You pay a max of $2,500 in co-pays per year.
- So your max annual costs are $3,750 + $2,500 = $6,250
- MSFT will pay $2,500 into your Health Savings Account each year, so your net out of pocket cost is $3,750. If you sign up for the HSP account in 2011-2013, then MSFT will contribute an additional "early adopter incentive" of $1,250. But after 2013, your max out-of-pocket costs are presumably back to $3,750
- You could pay that $3,750 out of tax-free contributions you make to your own HSA account, but then that money is locked away and can only be used for health expenses. If you don't want your money locked away then you have to pay with after-tax dollars.
- In order to come up with $3,750 in after-tax dollars, you'll need to earn about $5,000 in pre-tax dollars.
So, in the worse-case scenario this is equivalent to a pay cut of $5,000 per year. Maybe not too bad for someone making $200k, but that would be a 10% pay cut for someone making $50k.
Will increasing health care costs follow Ms. Brummel's charted path? It's interesting that the excise portion of the future ended up being a small little bump. Next: wellness - excellent idea. I love ensuring that we're all well and stay healthy upfront. But that includes affecting the ecosystem in which we live and ensuring people actually put time towards preventative health and making a place like Redmond a healthy place to live.
Sidebar: Just to whine a bit: for self-proclaimed bicycle capital, this is one hell of a scary place to ride a bike. Actually ensuring there's an infrastructure from the suburbs-to-work to safely ride a bike to encourage healthy living is some local influence Microsoft should have.
Sidebar two: Via DareO: The exciting nature of being ordinary - Sorting it all Out - one snippet: "Microsoft now looks ordinary to me."
I'm very supportive of whatever they can do about wellness (though the paranoid side of me hasn't liked the 'Know Your Numbers' campaign - who gets access to my numbers? Curiously, this extra overhead might prevent me from getting my flu shot this year).
Do I think the health changes will affect recruiting? Probably not. Do I think it will affect retention? Yes. See the above "ordinary" link. If other tech companies hold steady on their coverage then they close a big gap to hiring experienced people at Microsoft. Look, once you have a family and one or two big boo-boos (medical term) you realize: "holy crap, we are so fortunate... I love this company for caring for me and my family so well!" It's no golden handcuff, but it still anchors you.
Anchors away.
Given cut-backs like this, whether out of cost-saving necessity or not, the Senior Leadership Team has to realize there's zero tolerance now for major money screw-ups like KIN and Massive. The bumbling flushing away of millions or billions of dollars is going to be compared directly to the reduction in benefits: if this company was actually run by people who knew how to consistently achieve profits, we wouldn't be looking at these losses and saying, "Yep, that could have paid for US health-care for a while..."
All-in-all, though, I think (not having immersed myself in the details) our coverage remains a better-than-average benefit. And as long as we don't have to revert back to the Pacific Care Primary Care / Referrals model (talk about a time-waster during work-hours) I'm personally satisfied.
Regarding Live Labs being shutdown: so what's left that Ray Ozzie is running? FUSE labs? You know, the people who blew their internal reputation by hijacking and hacking the Office Web Apps for http://docs.com/ ? I would not be surprised to see Ray finding a new endeavor sooner than later. First Mesh, now Live Labs.
As for Live Labs going into Bing... what the? I've watched a lot of curious hiring and initiatives at Bing. All the best wishes to you Bingsters, but you're beginning to resemble an organization that has way too many people and now you're just creating work to keep them busy. We've seen this before, and curiously, with some of the same leadership that's in Bing now. Better to put them on a productive profit making endeavor or risk having them cut loose.
From the comments:
Let's see if the latest round of "This will bolster the stock price works." IEB re-org and benefit changes. Doubt it.
Checked with some friends in the Interactive Entertainment Business and they glumly report "We're getting Sinofskied." (Not reporting to Sinofsky, but picking up the same kind of management structure.) Ah. I've always been curious if the Sinofsky model holds up in a creative group. Now we have one big example in the making.
Looping back to Mr. Kaplan's ordinary comment: Mr. Matt Rosoff's parting post on leaving Directions on Microsoft expresses it in a different way:
In Seattle, Microsoft was where the all the best and brightest worked, had worked, or wanted to work. People even pronounced it with a particular tone of voice, hushed but awful, like people back East say "Harvard." All-caps. "Yeah, he owns a coffee shop now. But he used to work at MICROSOFT." [...] it's not MICROSOFT anymore. It's just Microsoft. Even in Seattle.
How do you feel about that? You're not ordinary and you don't live an ordinary life. You don't expect to do ordinary work for an ordinary company, do you? What needs to change?
376 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 376 of 376>>"I dreamt of working as software developer at Microsoft in Windows division... but you guys are drawing a very bad picture of the company: stealth layoffs, cuts in benefits, bad politics and bureaucracy in management... Is this just too pessimistic? Or should that dream of mine be cancelled?"
Well, for the record, my husband has worked in the developer division at MS for 5+ years and loves the work that he does and the team he works with and is very successful there. (And he's not working night and day like some employees I hear about.) I think if you are very talented, find your passion at MS and work well in a team environment, you can have a great career and have lots of fun there. So don't let this crush your dream!
50/50 chance our HSP evolves to something else entirely before it is forced on employees so I'd advise not getting too stressed out. That is why Lisa and J really had no details other than what is currently offered... everything they shared was how the current HSP works. That has been available for 2 years already.
I believe the town hall was a fairly clever play to build adoption of the current HSP in our younger, single, healthy employees who actually benefit the most in a HSP healthcare model and statistically are the likely early adopters.
For us older, married with kids or anyone with health issues that take a $2500 pay cut in this plan.. the good news is that we have mid term and Presidential elections before we probably see final decisions by Microsoft in any healthcare plans with pretty good odds in a power change that will almost certainly bring reform to the reform.
Folks, I’m going to give my opinion to those who responded directly to me, and I’m going to be as polite as if I was talking to you guys face to face (I just hate this “we can be very disrespectful because no one knows who we are” thing).
Regarding keeping up with the technology: actually I’m not talking so much about programming languages – rather, I’m talking about algorithms and computer science in general: search algorithms have improved quite a bit in the last 15 years, web technologies have evolved quite a bit, techniques for caching, techniques for UI development, techniques for DB development, algorithms related to number theory, techniques for quality assurance and measurements etc. We all got to keep up with these new advances.
Regarding age discrimination: look, I’m getting to my 40y milestone soon, and like many of you, this topic does cross my mind every night when I go to sleep. But this is just the nature of business: why would the company pay me more than a college hire? Because theoretically I add more value, so the more I get paid, the harder I have to work, because I have to add 2x to 3x more value than a college hire. Will that be easy? Hell no, it won’t! I have family, kids, all that old-guy jazz, and these college hires are sleeping over at Microsoft, working like crazy, they are hungry, so I’ll have to work my butt off if I want to make 2x to 3x more than these guys. I don’t think we need a formal study/research to prove this fact.
What should be the pitch to the new hires? I have one suggestion: “come to work to the largest software development company in the world, where we have a significant and unique presence in every single aspect of software, and where we hire only the best and the brightest – like you and me”.
Want to leave a comment with some healthy opening for debate
MS is a 95000+ company.
Anything is possible in a company this size and I admire the HR department for handling this - I am sure we have everything from sexual harrasment to hostile workspace to neopotism to outright stealing happenign every day in this organization.
What matters is that as an organization we deliver results. People have bad days, weeks, months and years. In the end, who do you want to work with when you are in competition on every front - OS, DB, Dev tools, Search, Health services and Consulting - you want to work with people who make things happen. You want leaders to motivate and empower people but it is a lot easier when the people are ready to put in the effort. I work in Search and we are at a make or break struggle to win market share the next few months. This will detemine whether we get a revenue stream from online or not after years of losing money.
So who do I want to work with? - I am a A/70 and not a E-20. But I would prefer to bet with a E-20 as the organization depends on this to turn around. If I am hiring would I hire a A-70 or an U-10 or A-10? make the guess.
I have worked outside in multiple companies for almost 20 years. You can be an underachiever and still survive till the company loses money. Then it is overnight adios. And you don't get severence, no thank you for your work and definitely not a fat cushy health insurance. I used to pay $800 a month out of pocket every month for health but compensated with stock options which amounted to someting over 3 years with the company being sold.
Everyone has a choice - you decide. If you feel you are entitled then you are complacent and lost the urge to do something. This is important when you work for any company and especaially when you work for the market leader in a few differnt fields (not just search).
I sometimes read the posts and am disgusted with the posts as anyone who worked outside with no gaurenteed pay hikes knows - if you are smart you will rise. For the people who complain that they made more - realize this. If your company has a few thousand people and you still can say this then I will agree. If you can go home every day and say I can be assured my company is profitable and I will make it the next 3 years then you have it made and in a pool this large anything is possible. You just have to swim
thx
Also, we should only hire folks from prestigious universities, or at least good, solid ones
I agree that there might be a small-to-medium correlation between university attendance and job performance, but I still, very strongly think this is a bad idea...for personal reasons as well as general.
I was valedictorian in high school. I was summa cum laude in college and #1 in the school of science. I was also, believe it or not, #1 in my elementary and middle schools.
I got an 800 on my math SAT's, and for 7 out of 8 classes per quarter in my senior year of high school, I had achieved a grade of 100%.
...oh, and I attended an "ordinary" state college, mostly because an Ivy education was unaffordable.
I'm not bragging. I believe that I am the equal or lesser of most of my peers at Microsoft, but I don't think the fact that I attended a non-Ivy should affect my employment eligibility.
You are assuming that performance evaluation mean something. They don't.
As a manager who's been here over 10 years, at this point, they don't mean jack!
Some thoughts about a number of topics in the comments:
BradLo. To whoever said he hasn't shipped anything in 8 years, he led Indigo and shipped WCF in 2006.
Healthcare. When I was in the military I had 100% coverage. Believe me, I prefer Microsoft's coverage even with the co-pay. It is still a good deal.
Reviews. MS Review system follows the carrot and stick model, which is widely understood in modern management science to not work well for the kind of work we do. Even worse, there is no mechanism to review the review system. There is no accountability for writing unfair reviews. Inaccurate and unfair reviews are rampant. In my opinion Microsoft absolutely cannot be successful the way it wants to be successful with its current review system. The review system as is causes people to focus on reviews, not on creativity, mastery, and excellence.
Motivation 1. In my experience, extremely few MS leads/managers understand what motivates people who do intellectually challenging work. Instead, I reguarly see leads and managers engage in behavior that demotivates people.
Antidotes to the negativity so many of my fellow MS employees posting here seem to be feeling:
1) Learn to motivate yourself. Microsoft is a great place to work with a lot of technologies. It isn't necessarily a great place to become a master programmer because the review system as implemented doesn't value that. But mastery should be one of the primary motivators for programmers. Reread Paul Graham's "Great Hackers" every six months. Or Robert Read's "How to be a Programmer." Or Peter Norvig's "Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years." Forget about Microsoft's review metrics. How are you doing against those metrics? If you are doing good against those metrics and a bad manager at MS gives you an undeserved U/10, you should have no problem finding a good gig somewhere else.
2). Give more. Do more for others less fortunate than you. It's good for them and even better for you.
3). Take your vacation and really get away. Give yourself time to step away from you MS identity every year and recharge.
4) Appreciate what you have. The world doesn't owe you a thing. Compared to the world at large, those of us working for MS in Redmond really have a good life if we could just step back from some of the negativity and see the bigger picture.
First of all realize that there is an 80/20 rule at work here. 80% of the comments come from the 20% who are disaffected for one reason or another. That's excluding the trolls and outsiders who have a bone to pick with Microsoft, Ballmer, immigrant engineers or corporate America.
If you want to work in an organization that is stable, make a world class salary and write code that impacts hundreds of millions of users, then I would still highly recommend the Windows division. The comments section of this blog can be like the blind man at the rear end of the elephant.
It is like the doctor's office - nothing but people with problems.
Occasionally, some random dude wanders in to tell everyone to just be positive and pretend nothing is wrong.
So who do I want to work with? - I am a A/70 and not a E-20. But I would prefer to bet with a E-20 as the organization depends on this to turn around. If I am hiring would I hire a A-70 or an U-10 or A-10? make the guess.
"U" is for the "untouchable" caste.
The Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil
Psychologist Zimbardo masterminded the famous Stanford Prison Experiment, in which college students randomly assigned to be guards or inmates found themselves enacting sadistic abuse or abject submissiveness. In this penetrating investigation, he revisits—at great length and with much hand-wringing—the SPE study and applies it to historical examples of injustice and atrocity, especially the Abu Ghraib outrages by the U.S. military. His troubling finding is that almost anyone, given the right "situational" influences, can be made to abandon moral scruples and cooperate in violence and oppression.
Go somewhere else where you can be positive, assuming it was ever in you. It will be healthier for you and much better for MS. MS's turnaround will be dependent on employees who can remain optimistic about the future and finding ways to continue making a positive contribution today, even while fully acknowledging the nature and extent of the current problems.
You missed his point.
Arranging deck chairs on the Titanic won't keep the ship from sinking.
Obesity on the job comes with a hefty price tag. Estimated at $73.1 billion, the sum exceeds the cost of employee healthcare and absenteeism.
Given the food they serve to employees, Microsoft has been hoisted by its own petard.
Common foods and ingredients only spoken of in terms of calories by people like Kevin Turner have more profound effects on metabolism.
(a) Collectively, the per capita costs of obesity are as high as $16,900 for obese women with a body mass index (BMI) over 40 (roughly 100 pounds overweight) and $15,500 for obese men in the same BMI class.
Presenteeism makes up the largest share of those—as much as 56 percent of the total cost of obesity for women, and 68 percent for men. Even among those in the normal weight range, the value of lost productivity due to health problems far exceeded the medical costs.
(b) When all costs of obesity are combined, individuals with a body mass index greater than 35 (grades II and III obese) disproportionately account for 61 percent of the costs, yet they only represent 37 percent of the obese population.
“The disproportionately high per capita and total cost of grade II and grade III obesity is particularly concerning given that these BMI ranges are the fastest-growing subset of the obese population,” says Marco daCosta DiBonaventura of Kantar Health, a coauthor of the study.
You folks also pay more in taxes than us Yanks. 45% (top bracket) compared to 39%. That's much better than what you mates had to pay a few years back (60% !!!).
You are referencing the Federal tax rate. Most (43??) US States levy income taxes at 5% of more, so the actual top tax rate is 44%, not 39%. Not much difference between the US and Australia in that regard.
Does anyone know what the health insurance coverage is with our main competitors, Google and Apple? Just curious.
>>Every time I hear about people "keeping up" with technology it makes me want to throw up.
It's a uniquely Microsoft thing that every 2 years you have to learn a new language and a new set of libraries to remain viable in the Microsoft-ecosystem workforce.
Couldn't disagree more. I'm. 44, worked for the company for 10 years.
I make it a point to keep up on new technology that is important to me and getting my job done. To think that you're going to get by with C and C++ indefinitely, and that everything new that comes along is gratuitous fluff, is (IMO) intellectual laziness.
>where we hire only the best and the brightest – like you and me
Can't speak to you because I don't know you, but I have met enough people here that have an amazing mix of arrogance and incompetence that it staggers the mind. This seems to be counter evidence to the belief that 'we only hire the best and the brightest'.
I get the idea behind what you are saying, I just don't think it is true if you look around without the koolaid colored shades.
We are much like any other high tech company, we strive to get the best people we can to fill the openings, but sometimes getting someone in and working takes precedence over getting the absolute best. Plus, the best are asking a lot these days, and Microsoft just really doesn't have what it takes to deliver on those demands. Sure we have products used by an insane amount of people, but the vast majority of them use them due to the LACK of good, affordable alternatives, not due to the inherent awesomeness of our products. That and the flip side of 'used by millions of people' is generally 'ancient code base that almost no one understands anymore, is massively entangled like a giant ball of glue covered spaghetti and you can't change anything for fear of breaking something some important (or just vocal) partner depends on'
All in all (speaking as an MSFT employee) I think Microsoft gives a good exposure to large scale software engineering and great experience in what it means to support/maintain lots and lots of code you didn't write (which is a valuable skill). It gives you experience working in insanely large code bases and teaches you how to come up to speed reasonably quickly on code you didn't write, and may have been written before you were born, that has no comments, cryptically named variables/methods, and, very likely, NO sort of unit tests or integration type tests.
>> Google will buy out your not yet vested stock with a huge sign-on bonus
Unless you have a gold plated resume, stellar references, and you brutally kick ass in the interview (probability of all three is infinitesimally small), Google will not give a sign-on cash bonus. They will give stock, however, and it could cancel your unvested MSFT stock, but there's no guarantee.
"if you are smart you will rise."
- Untrue, this should be modified to reflect if you are smart you will rise provided you play the Ballmer created political culture right and luck is on your side that your manager doesn't leave/change. This applies even more at L64 and above. Your life is beautiful till the time your manager thinks the world of you, otherwise the company does not value you (even in other groups). MSFT's flawed culture thinks it is YOUR fault that your bond with your manager is not 100% anymore and that means you are not valued at the company in any other group. What a BS. I wish the company instead asked the manager and you to rework the bond and if not fixable, then place you two in two different groups.
BTW: Ballmer culture dictates the quality of managerial bond is even more important than quality of the work or the success of the group you are leading. e.g. look at Jon DeVaan (messed up MSTV big time) but got a big job in Windows anyway after being "parked" for some idiotic thing like Engineering Strategy personally supervised by Ballmer, look at Yusuf Mehdi (messed up MSN big time) but was then "parked" as business advisor to the same group and later got even bigger job in the same group, the list goes on. Till the time Ballmer Bond is maintained all the execs got promos and boat loads of cash (Bruce Jaffe is another example - promoed and given bigger jobs despite screwups in MSN and when the bond was broken he was thrown out liked a chewed tobacco).
This behavior is totally woven in the corporate culture even to the GM level. I know a number of GMs promoting their peons multiple times in a year even with nothing earth shattering to show (e.g Kevin Egan promoted his peon three times in a SINGLE year to get her to the Director level fast).
Until Ballmer is bolted out, this culture wont change and true innovation wont happen until then.
The only difference it brings to me is that I need to get promoted to senior level sooner than I planned and then leave this sinking boat.
Mini, I think it is time we get feedback on Windows Phone 7. I love the phone and can't wait for it to come in my hand :)
"I dreamt of working as software developer at Microsoft in Windows division... but you guys are drawing a very bad picture of the company: stealth layoffs, cuts in benefits, bad politics and bureaucracy in management... Is this just too pessimistic? Or should that dream of mine be cancelled?"
Cancel your dream. My wife just told me a co-worker of hers is leaving her company for PM position at Microsoft. After my experience, I told her to let him know that's a decision he'll one day regret. Been there, done that, wish I hadn't.
MS gave us windows 7, silverlight 4, bing, bing maps, office 2010, ie9, wp7 and soon KINECT. ALL of the cool, all of that full of innovation!
That's a seriously flawed defintion of innovation and I'm HIGHLY confident the market will support my opinion. These things will sell, don't get me wrong. But investors will reward the innovative (Apple, Google) and not the follow-ons or copy-cats. First mover advantage is a concept Microsoft exec's will never understand.
Windows 7 = a fix to Vista disaster
Silverlight 4 = response to Flash, HTML5
Bing/Maps = response to Google (the innovative one)
Office 2010 = follow-on release of cash cow, if it was innovative I would have seen it reported on nightly national TV news when released, it's purely an extension
IE9 = samething, someday it will get 100% pass on Acid3 test, still not there yet
WP7 = response to iPhone (innovative mostly in integration to developer community and marketing), Android (although I will say the idea of "living icons" is the one innovative piece I see well executed here)
KINECT = response to Wii
The Tale of the Two Steves
Looking at
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=MSFT&t=my&l=on&z=l&q=l&c=AAPL
and noting Steve Ballmer took over as CEO beginning of 2000.
And Apple invited Steve Jobs back in late 1996.
Why does our board keep Steve on? I guess they think someone else could do worse? I think it is worth the risk.
"I dreamt of working as software developer at Microsoft in Windows division... but you guys are drawing a very bad picture of the company: stealth layoffs, cuts in benefits, bad politics and bureaucracy in management... Is this just too pessimistic? Or should that dream of mine be cancelled?"
Just like with any point of view, there are the two extremes, and the truth lies in the middle.
Your experience at Microsoft will vary depending on the group you are in and the manager that runs the team. There are great managers who sit in well run teams, with resources and a clear mission. There are also terrible groups with bad management who sit in organizations with decaying value to the company and no charter. So, your mileage may vary.
I would stay away from advice that says Microsoft is a wretched hive of scum and villainy as much as I would stay away from advice that says that it is the greatest company to work for and have another glass of Kool-Aid as I tell you more.
I would advise anyone going to work at Microsoft you are one bad reorg away from a bad manager, a bad group, or ending up somewhere with no resources. That isn't to say that you can't roll into a different group in that situation. Networking is the key to survival, and if you don't do well with others, and prefer to consort with the robot race, not being able to play the game is going to hurt you (it will hurt you anywhere, but hurts you probably more at Microsoft than other tech companies)
I would also advise someone going to work at Microsoft that the review system as it stands today will mean you will either become a GM or you will hit a ceiling and have to leave. 20% have great careers, 70% are in the middle and if they don't advance they will be managed out, 10% need to get their resume in order and find a new job. That's how it is, year after year. The era of being able to create your next great job and be creative with your career is over, and it will never come back.
Is Microsoft a bad company to work for? No, Microsoft on your resume definitely looks good. Is Microsoft the best tech company to work for on the planet? Not any more, not by a long shot. Is Microsoft a good company? Yes, absolutely.
If you eventually interview for a position at Microsoft and you get to negotiation I would ask what the WHI score is for the team you are joining. 80% or above is good. 70% to 80% is a yellow light. Below 70% is a red light.
Also the RoB at Microsoft varies from group to group. I've been in groups where the norm is a 40 to 50 hour week with 40 to 50 hours of honest work a week. I've been in other groups where if you're not working 60 to 70 hours a week, not sending e-mail at midnight and weekends, you're a slacker.
Going to work at Microsoft isn't a hard decision - picking the right group and manager - that is the hard decision.
"I dreamt of working as software developer at Microsoft in Windows division... Or should that dream of mine be cancelled?"
I worked in Windows division for several years and, like in every other team at Microsoft, the culture has changed. You have to consider the internal competition. As new products spin off at Microsoft, those teams get fat budgets, promotions and exciting opportunities. Windows is no longer in the bucket of exciting products.
Furthermore, the Win7 was the last major update and Microsoft is not looking at significant investment into Windows OS. Closer to Win7 release, windows division faced one of the biggest layoffs. There were many smart people working there, but most of them (who could be hired elsewhere) have left the group before entire teams were downsized.
Many new hires in Windows were placed in SE (sustained engineering) and those poor souls were counting days for 1 year to expire so that they can change teams. Lately the entire Windows org seemed like a big SE group.
Even years ago Windows was not the most team-oriented group. Backstabbing was a norm, employees cheered at some psychopath's promotion so that they wouldn't have to report directly to him. It really was a sick culture. Compared to that, DevDiv was a much nicer place to work, but the products are in their specific niche and are not extremely innovative.
Should the dream be cancelled? Probably not. Go and explore if you have time before Windows as we know is dead.
First of all realize that there is an 80/20 rule at work here. 80% of the comments come from the 20% who are disaffected for one reason or another.
So it's easy to figure out that if you accept a job at Microsoft, you will have a one in five chance of ending up thoroughly unhappy in your work, most likely through no fault of your own. I would think that you'd get much better odds elsewhere.
"Stealth" layoffs in CSS - Xbox division today. Not sure how many, but you were out the door without job assistance if you were underpeforming.
My manager hurled verbal abuses (every single one of them from regular and slang gutter vocab) at me today for no apparent reason. I am extremely upset about this, but he also subtly warned of dire consequences if ever I ever complained to anybody when he realized he went overboard. It was unbelievable. This company is really going down into pits.
Can someone advice what I should be doing? I am not able to make up my mind.
>if you are smart you will rise.
Ahhh yes, the classic 'it's all meritocratic, if you don't succeed it is ALL your own fault'. Spoken like someone that...well has never seen the real world. I agree if you are delivering stellar results it is hard to not get noticed, hard but not impossible. Perhaps your boss just directs your efforts towards less visible things that are 'high pri' promising you will get rewarded upon completion, that of course never happens, but then again he never said that did he? Do you have it in writing? See, it is just a game of 'legally screwed you'. The ethics around the company are amongst the shadiest I have seen anywhere. Most people define right as a synonym for expedient or personally advantageous.
Ultimately all promotions and rewards are based on fairly simple stack ranking, this is done behind closed doors with NO exposure as to who gets what, just feedback on what YOU got and perhaps you see someone else promoted via noticing in the GAL or they move from an IC to lead role, but other than that it is all secret. Secret decisions lead to severe lack of accountability and turns stack ranking into simple horse trading amongst leads. If you don't think this happens, well, keep on dreaming, I am sure your fantasy land is FAR more appealing than reality.
>If you can go home every day and say I can be assured my company is profitable and I will make it the next 3 years then you have it made and in a pool this large anything is possible. You just have to swim
So when is search going to make back the billions of dollars we have poured into getting its overall marginal share? Or are we just aiming for near term profitability and pretending all that cost didn't really happen / couldn't have been better spent? There are really only two big, profitable divisions at the company, everyone else pretty much lives off their largess, and they live of quirks of fate that brought them into great monopoly positions. We should make sure we understand history and not conclude we are where we are due to being so awesome. There is a reason Apple appeals to consumers so much so that they have passed our market cap (from the brink of ruin not terribly long ago) and it isn't because Windows is such a great experience day in and day out.
I am not against search, I actually use Bing most everyday, and not out of some felt loyalty to my employer, but let's call a spade a spade shall we. The org as a whole, from what I can see is massively overstaffed, the innovation it has delivered has been...well more incremental than game changing, and all the best ideas quickly copied by Google (Hint: You get no credit for 'being first', you need something your competitors can't easily copy. Maybe that will be the Facebook integration stuff announced today, maybe not, we shall see how that works out).
@Anon 9:37
"I am sure we have everything from ... hostile workspace to neopotism"
Yes, and it earns leads and management promos and awards at the expense of an infighting workforce.
I spoke with the microsoft benefits VP/Manager (I don't remember the guy's official title). His words were something along the lines of: Microsoft doesn't just have Cadillac plans but it has BMW type plans.
In 2018, an excise tax will kick in that will charge 40% above specific limits. Based on the data that I have (as an outsider), the microsoft plans will hit those limits roughly around 2013/2014. If you take 90k people x ~$2-3k x 40% = $108M extra in taxes. And I'm being really generous with the plans only exceeding the limits by $2-3k. On top of that medical inflation is about 8%/year. So that equals a really huge number over time.
In the end, companies have to start doing something. And even if the excise tax doesn't happen. If there are 90k employees and the cost per employee is 11k, that's close to the $1B mark for healthcare. If that number is growing at 8%, 8% of a number that large is a significant amount. Everyone else is probably going to be doing the same thing.
>>"Thank you for all that you do" & just append "...but I wish I could pay you less!!"
No, he wants to say "Thank you for all you did."
team in WL got go.... LEX Mobile with 50 FTE in China will be cut
>>Mini, I think it is time we get feedback on Windows Phone 7. I love the phone and can't wait for it to come in my hand :)
Wow, that's a capability that iPhones don't have.
>>KINECT = response to Wii
Um, except for the fact that it doesn't need a controller. If you don't think that's innovative, well, paint me purple and call me Shirley.
>>Can someone advice what I should be doing? I am not able to make up my mind.
Sure. Let the air out of his car tires. It'll give him some exercise and something tangible to swear at.
Seriously, this simply isn't acceptable anywhere, ever.
>if you are smart you will rise.
This has always been true. Unfortunately, it used to mean technically smart: now it means politically smart.
If you're supporting the agenda someone influential - regardless of whether it is the right agenda or (more likely) not - you'll probably do OK.
If, however, you're the lone voice pointing out the emperor's lack of clothing... you'll soon find you're totally (and stealthily) f***ed.
Even if you're 100% correct. Doesn't matter. Integrity? Only a company value on paper.
There simply aren't enough technically adept senior leaders left, and we have virtually no one who would know how to find and hire the right people.
Instead, we have accreted a scum of supremely arrogant and ruthless individuals who truly know how to succeed in *any* large corporation.
After 10+ years, I've learned my lesson. I'll never give a manager honest (meaning other than 110% positive) feedback about anything.
If you do, then you quietly get tagged as "negative", which is probably the most damning label you can be given: it automatically invalidates anything you've ever said or will say, in the eyes of those that control your success.
Common foods and ingredients only spoken of in terms of calories by people like Kevin Turner have more profound effects on metabolism.
Agreed wholeheartedly. A single piece of fast food non-gourmet pizza as sold by the cafeterias contains about half the total number of calories I have to limit myself to per day, to maintain my weight. I have a desk job and with 12 hours a day on it, I don't have time for pro club, so the sacrifice has to come from what goes in.
Company salad bars are filled with cheap pasta and potatoes heaped with nasty non-nutritious, high calorie sauces, rather than greens and the rainbow of fresh things that nutritionists tell us to eat off a salad bar (Lincoln Square and maybe Commons and 120 excepted from this criticism).
Main dishes are often not much better.
I eventually started to bring a bag of pre-washed salad mix in every day I thought I might be in a lunch mood.
ok, so I can not sleep at 3.45am.
I didn't get a good review because I missed a deadline.
I missed the deadline because I couldn't checkin the code on time. And that is because a "senior" colleague hold-off my checkin for about 1.5 months. everytime I went to him for CR, he would just send me back saying that he is working on some high pri stuff ( which he was), he postponed my CR S+ 5 times. I was under clean and explicit intructions from my manager that I encourage feedback from this colleague and incorporate it, and so I did that.
Result: comment in my review that I missed the deadline without notifying the management on time.
I had a talk with colleague about the incident and its repercussions and he said he was sorry for what he did.
5+ years here and I still have to learn a lot.
All this talk about cost-cutting, and NOBODY is mentioning Kevin Turner? You SERIOUSLY cannot believe that KT wasn't in some way behind this?... "
If I remember my history correctly, about the time KT came to MSFT, there was a big public flapdoodle at WMART about a previous project and document that came out public, presented to the WALMART BOD, about older workers, older v. younger worker productivity, healthcare costs, and the doc went as far as obliquely suggesting hiring managers hire 'healthier looking' workers, etc.
KT is absolutely front and center on costs and this would be a key element. Recall at the Company meeting he discussed keeping costs at zero? A $700M non-production cost (cost not associated with producing a product/business) doesn't miss his eye, and I'm sure there were full reviews from LisaB's team to KT, when they presented the numbers, options and proposed changes.
KT recived >140% of his planned bonus (highest ever) for keeping costs flat last year. His bonus had to come from someone's budget loss. I mean 'hey, saving $700M is enough to run Online for a whole extra Quarter!
" I worked my arse off and got a high-vis project done. That work/results helped mint three partners, and they knew it, hence the crumbs thrown my way. Had I to do it over, I would not have even bothered, and would likely still be employed."
I agree with this post. Several years ago I recall working for a Regional VP and my $8M coming order was comingin end of year. That amount meant being at quota or over quota for the VP (our district was fine, regardless of the oder). He later bragged to the GM about the new Turbo Porsche he bought after the year closed which I'm sure he could have purchased without the bonus, but he upside from that purchase was astounding. I had the number one team in the Country and left for higher rewards. I found the review paralyzing, and this was several years back before it got really ugly. I think the difference to me in getting that PO to come in (I lived ate and slept that deal) was about $3,000 and a pat on the head - here's your new larger than any peer in the US - quota for next year.
That position became a revolving door. Talk about no reward for risk.
Most (43??) US States levy income taxes at 5% of more, so the actual top tax rate is 44%, not 39%
Not for Microsoft employees in Redmond, at least not yet. Actually it's much lower than that. The Australian tax rate of 45% starts at AUD$180K. For US, it is only 28% (married) if you're making less than $200K.
The difference (17%) would be $34,000 which would cover all your medical needs at 100% coverage and more.
UK is even higher at 50% over UK150K
And Canadians pay 29%+14.7%(BC). And they have really high GST (15%).
So if you want to compare medical care in US vs other developed countries, you need to consider the income tax rate too.
My manager hurled verbal abuses (every single one of them from regular and slang gutter vocab) at me today for no apparent reason.
Next time, record it with your iPhone video camera and post it on YouTube!
You might get fired. Based on what I've read here, he will just get promoted.
Stack rank: They mythical "fair" way to divvy up the money. Gather, children, while I tell you a story.
I joined a team, got committments, delivered on them for a few months. Got unexpectedly re-orged to a a new lead within the org (as part of a larger reorg). Did a transition review where my previous manager said nice things. All good.
Got new committents, started delivering on those. Within a few months? You guessed it. Re-orged again, to a new team within the org. Instead of a transition review we did the mid-year review where nice things were said about my performance. All good.
Got new committments. Started delivering on those. Annual review comes up and .. . A/10! What the?! When I asked my new (3rd!) manager what the deal was, it turned out that he was very candid because he was on the way out of the org.
He said during the stack rank meetings my previous two managers had said quite negative things about me and my performance, my future in the organization. Those same two managers who in writing, in review documents said glowing things about me turned around and talked smack about me in the stack rank meetings in order to get their current employees better situated in the stack rank.
I only found out about this because my 3rd boss was about to quit the team. Needless to say . . . I was displeased.
I did not get re-orged because I was a problem. I got repeatedly re-orged because my senior management has re-org tourettes.
I tried to stay in the org to get the A/10 rectified but tragically I continued to get re-orged around (along with my peers) and got 4 different new leads in the following year, got another A/10, and almost immediately hopped to a new team.
My point? Some teams are just poison. Supersecret stack ranks are like having a star chamber calling the shots, and it's so political and back-stabbing I'm shocked it's still considered a reasonable management technique.
Given last week's news I'm going to dig in to my new team, try to get promoted and earn as much money as I can while the benefits are still good, and re-assess in 2013.
Management at Microsoft is great if you are on a good team with a good manager. Anything else and you are screwed.
Oh! Asking for the WHI is an excellent idea, but I would go one further: ask to see WHI trends for the immediate team and the larger org. Any team who hesitates to cough up the trends is a team to be concerned about.
Microsoft on your resume definitely looks good.
Not really. I work in a company that has interviewed many Microsoft employees looking for jobs outside Microsoft and the large percentage of interviewees haven't been up to snuff. Maybe it's because those who couldn't make it are looking outside, or because we aren't some big company like Google, but we don't think "Microsoft, must be a definite hire", but more of "What kind of people is Microsoft hiring these days?".
"My manager hurled verbal abuses (every single one of them from regular and slang gutter vocab)..."
It will take courage but you should report him to HR. You should also keep a written record of all interactions with that manager. Once I turned 40, I noticed that my manager started hitting me with a lot more negativity and started threatening me with "being managed out". I started taking meticulous notes during all 1 on 1s to help protect myself.
To be honest, I would love to be laid off (with standard severance) but just don't really want to get fired.
I'm just curious as to whether anyone has mentioned to their boss that they wanted to get laid off and what the outcome was.
Just one more anecdote on the Health Care thing. On a recent trip to Ireland (I am a US\Irish Dual Citizen), I must have been partying too hard because I was having heart palpitations and went to the ER.
I had to wait 90 minutes to see a doctor which was a drag. But then I was very well treated, consulted with two doctors and, underwent a number of EKG scans and other tests. All in all, it took about 3 hours but I was given a clean bill of health.
When the time came to pay, I told the check-out person that I would need a bill so that I could charge back to US insurance. Anyway we got chatting and turns out her son lived in Seattle so she decided to push the paperwork through as if I was a visiting EU person without a medical card. Total cost Euros 65. I asked her afterwards how much the cost would have been if she just treated me as a US National -- A paltry 160 Euros. Unbelievable.
To all you Obamacare haters out there, you have no idea how much you are getting screwed by the Health Industry in this county. I'd be really curious how you would react if all the corporations unilaterally decided one day to not provide health coverage.
If you are interested in health care as a discussion topic you should check out the Frontline documentary on comparative health care systems in 5 leading capitalist democracies. Link is:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/
"You missed his point.
Arranging deck chairs on the Titanic won't keep the ship from sinking."
And another spectacular example. Only this time lacking any creativity whatsoever.
"(Hint: You get no credit for 'being first', you need something your competitors can't easily copy. Maybe that will be the Facebook integration stuff announced today, maybe not, we shall see how that works out)."
Good point and a mistake that MS makes over and over. Just about every move Bing has made was easy for Google to copy and that should have been clear in foresight, not just hindsight. And of course that’s exactly what Google did because they’re still vigilant about protecting their cash cows, unlike MS. Unless the Facebook stuff uses a non-public API or is dependent on some assistance that Facebook is providing MS on an exclusive basis, then this latest stuff should be easy for Google to copy as well. And since it took MS just two months, Google should have that done in a few weeks.
I just have to say due to bad advice by HR, I signed up for the HMO they are talking about my first year. It was a hell of a long year waiting for open enrollment to change to BCBS. It was hands down the WORST insurance I've ever had. It's like they hired someone from eastern bloc europe circa 1950 and had them design a healthcare program for political prisoners.
No question about it, don't even have to think about it, I have 2 years to find a better job.
Android is now contributing more than $1 billion per year to Google's revenue.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2010/10/14/businessinsider-androids-all-about-search-for-now-2010-10.DTL
Maybe Microsoft is chasing the wrong ball with Windows Mobile 7?
Just a thought from an outsider. It sounds like the health care change is to avoid the Cadillac plan tax that takes effect in 2014. The current MS plan sounds like a Cadillac plan, (above 8k per year cost for an individual, 21k for families). So MS may well be ducking this tax.
funny comment
BradLo. To whoever said he hasn't shipped anything in 8 years, he led Indigo and shipped WCF in 2006.
Isn't indigo renamed to wcf? double credit?
Wasn't 2006 4 years ago?
He actually shipped it? Like, until the end?
He was a pointificating empire builder whose components have never made it to mainstream use. Please tell us something he actually finished.
I left MS (Bing) just over 2 months ago to join Google and wow.. they really hasn't been a single day that I've regretted it:
* 30+% overall raise in comp
* free high quality and healthy food
* people on my team are much smarter
* I don't need to wait hours for code to compile because the build system can't figure out what needs to be recompiled and what doesn't; I don't need to perform magical incantations to integrate branch X and Y and then reverse integrate Y with Z; I don't need to constantly coordinate release schedules with 4 other teams; I don't need to waste weeks deciding what work we have time to do, only to release that we used up so much time deciding, that we really have almost no time left..
* oh, and I don't have to put up with Partner-level people who are just out to protect their asses and bring home a big paycheck
If you can get an offer from Google, grab it and don't look back (unless you want to see a crumbling empire)
I missed the deadline because I couldn't checkin the code on time. And that is because a "senior" colleague hold-off my checkin for about 1.5 months
I hate to be blunt, but you got what you deserved for being wimpy...
I would never allow that to happen -- if I was convinced that code is good, I would do following:
a) Send code review request in e-mail (or CR tool, if you have one);
b) If there is no answer next day, I would repeat request, Cc-in manager (both if you do not have same one).
c) If after a week there is no traction, I would go ahead and check it in.
"Android is now contributing more than $1 billion per year to Google's revenue"
No. Search across all mobile phone platforms that Google runs on, including iPhone, is generating $1 billion per year for Google.
Microsoft on your resume definitely looks good.
Not really. I work in a company that has interviewed many Microsoft employees looking for jobs outside Microsoft and the large percentage of interviewees haven't been up to snuff. Maybe it's because those who couldn't make it are looking outside, or because we aren't some big company like Google, but we don't think "Microsoft, must be a definite hire", but more of "What kind of people is Microsoft hiring these days?".
It is a result of working in a large company too long.
If you work at a large company like Microsoft for a lot of years, a lot of your skills can atrophy because you spend the entire day working on a few features instead of an entire product.
At a large company, writing new code or fixing it may involve needing changes in code owned by another part of the organization.
Any code you contribute to or need from another organization is slowed down by needing approval from the part of the organization owning that code. Often, their organization has different priorities than your organization so the fix gets postponed to a later release. You can spend a lot of time negotiating trying to get something you need fixed.
Working at a small company, you get to practice more software skills.
If you're married and have children, the hours you spend at work are where you get to practice your skills the most.
With a large company like Microsoft, you're also limited in what open source projects you can contribute to since they compete in so many areas.
Someone graduating from college could learn a lot more working for a smaller company that allows you to particpate in open source projects.
If you are at a small company and hiring someone from Microsoft or from any large company, you should have a probationary period to see if the enthusiasm and initiative that got stomped out of them working at a large company returns.
I just have to say due to bad advice by HR, I signed up for the HMO they are talking about my first year.
HR works for Microsoft. Their bad advice to convince you to choose an HMO saves Microsoft money.
When it comes to choosing between your interests and Microsoft's, HR chooses Microsoft.
Just a thought from an outsider. It sounds like the health care change is to avoid the Cadillac plan tax that takes effect in 2014. The current MS plan sounds like a Cadillac plan, (above 8k per year cost for an individual, 21k for families). So MS may well be ducking this tax.
It is also good cover to cut costs.
So far the money saved is going into partner's pockets instead of to shareholders.
Company salad bars are filled with cheap pasta and potatoes heaped with nasty non-nutritious, high calorie sauces, rather than greens and the rainbow of fresh things that nutritionists tell us to eat off a salad bar (Lincoln Square and maybe Commons and 120 excepted from this criticism).
Main dishes are often not much better.
I eventually started to bring a bag of pre-washed salad mix in every day I thought I might be in a lunch mood.
The lipid peroxidation from consuming salad oil also contributes to a variety of diseases.
Video: Make Yourself Heart Attack Proof
Caldwell Esselstyn, MD, former chief of surgery at the Cleveland Clinic (now retired), discusses his 18-year study whereby he reversed severe heart disease in every patient in his program -- who had all been sent home to die by their cardiologists.
The advanced glycation end product, Nepsilon-(carboxymethyl)lysine, is a product of both lipid peroxidation and glycoxidation reactions.
http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2010/10/apple-breaks-10-market-share-in-us-lenovo-climbs-globally.ars
Didn't they claim Apple's share to have gone down at the company meeting?
Didn't they also claim BS numbers regarding Windows Server vs Linux by not even taking into account the overwhelming number of non-OEM Linux installs? Hint to execs: almost nobody buys servers with Linux pre-installed, so comparing server sales with Linux vs Windows Server is dumb.
Why the continued delusions?
If I remember my history correctly, about the time KT came to MSFT, there was a big public flapdoodle at WMART about a previous project and document that came out public, presented to the WALMART BOD, about older workers, older v. younger worker productivity, healthcare costs, and the doc went as far as obliquely suggesting hiring managers hire 'healthier looking' workers, etc.
KT is absolutely front and center on costs and this would be a key element. Recall at the Company meeting he discussed keeping costs at zero? A $700M non-production cost (cost not associated with producing a product/business) doesn't miss his eye, and I'm sure there were full reviews from LisaB's team to KT, when they presented the numbers, options and proposed changes.
KT recived >140% of his planned bonus (highest ever) for keeping costs flat last year. His bonus had to come from someone's budget loss. I mean 'hey, saving $700M is enough to run Online for a whole extra Quarter!
When KT came to MSFT I was not happy about him joining the leadership team. When the global economy went sour I felt KT was the right man in the right place, and Microsoft financially did well during the downturn (equity value of the stock excluded).
But now KT is still cutting and slashing. I know a number of co-workers who have seen their group budgets cut so deeply they can't even execute. Some very critical internal and external projects are grossly under funded while scope is expanding.
You can't run Microsoft like Walmart, and it feels like that is exactly what management is trying to do.
Just curious....has anyone had a GOOD experience with GroupHealth? My friend calls it "GroupDeath," which doesn't fill me with confidence.
@" If you take 90k people x ~$2-3k x 40% = $108M extra in taxes",
Please remember there are not 90,000 US employees. Many countries have decoupled employment and health, so you are looking at much less than any back-of-the-napkin figures you are playing with.
Dear Leader says: "Geez some of you even like technical stuff." Geez, some of us do. How quaint of us.
http://www.techflash.com/seattle/2010/10/why_microsoft_ballmers_reply_to_underwhelmed_college_student.html
>You can't run Microsoft like Walmart, and it feels like that is exactly what management is trying to do.
Yes, the mark of a great leader, to simply try to blindly apply something that worked in the past to every following scenario you find yourself in with no reflection of any sort as to differences which may make some things less applicable than they may have been in the past, say at a cut-rate retailer staffing with entry level people with 0 special skills needed and trying to keep them as close to minimum wage as you possibly can without massive slave revolts. I can't imagine why tactics that were successful in one environment wouldn't be a completely different one, it makes no sense in the KT mindset.
<<"Total cost Euros 65. I asked her afterwards how much the cost would have been if she just treated me as a US National -- A paltry 160 Euros. Unbelievable.">>
It's not intelligent to analyze data like that in a vacuum. There is so much more to consider--like where is the money coming from to pay for healthcare in Ireland? What is their standard of living? Do you realize that their unemployment rate has been in the double digits for decades? Recently it's been close to 14%.
<<"the good news is that we have mid term and Presidential elections before we probably see final decisions by Microsoft in any healthcare plans with pretty good odds in a power change that will almost certainly bring reform to the reform.">>
Unfortunately, MS has already stated the following in their health care FAQ:
What will happen if health care reform changes, or if the law is repealed?
We will continue on the path to evolving our health care benefits. There are several reasons we are
making changes — health care reform is only one factor. Our health care costs per employee have
grown considerably in the past 10 years and will continue to rise sharply in the future -- even without the legislative excise tax -- due to medical inflation and our maturing population. We need to take action to control health care costs and create an environment of wellness, and our current benefit design does not support these efforts.
"Didn't they claim Apple's share to have gone down at the company meeting?"
Fanboy, Apple's share did go down fiscal year over year, which despite the time lag is what the company meeting is about. Deal with it. This is just in data for last quarter. In fact it's still subject to revision once Apple announces results. But they do appear to have increased share this past quarter.
"Didn't they claim Apple's share to have gone down at the company meeting?"
Yes, I too recall a carefully worded comment that KT mentioned about our share going up here and Apple's going down when he was comparing, what I believe, were "laptops" and "macbooks". iPad's were not factored into that equation, so of course we looked good.
Good comment also on OEM Windows Installs v. Linux. Another carefully worded 'statistic'.
"Microsoft on your resume definitely looks good. Not really."
I would generally agree. "Microsoft" no longer has the cache it used to have. Just too darned many MS and ex-MSrs out there, who have not all had stellar and successful post MS careers.
I was allegedly a “valued” employee (3.5’s to 4.5’s and never a 10) and chose to leave on my own volition after working under an abusive Partner, who BTW got demoted a month later, and then allowed almost a year to find a new job internally.
I think 3-7 years of Solid MS experience looks good, after that long, many companies look at you as if you're an alien and may not be able to "survive" in another environment that is "not Microsoft". I was asked several times why I stayed so long and why I left then, after being a long time employee with a stellar last written review, (which by the way helped me land the next job – and two offers actually in one day – so folks, if you can bear the market take those great written reviews and get out), but I sensed the length of time - 10+ years - was a detraction, not an asset.
I agree for newer and younger folks it might be a good place to see how the products get built, process, etc., but after your first 5 years, get out! Same at the higher levels – take a swing through Microsoft if it helps round out your resume, but if you’re not looking to retire soon, don’t stay too long or you will get stale – to the outside world – and as others have commented, you’re only one bad manager away from being pushed out the door as a “low achiever”, regardless of what you feel you may have added to the Company, HR only believes managers – not employees.
Deeps Thoughts With Steve Ballmer presents "technical stuff":
Youtube: Steve Ballmer on "technical stuff"
"My manager hurled verbal abuses (every single one of them from regular and slang gutter vocab)..."
It will take courage but you should report him to HR. You should also keep a written record …”
Remember that lesson in mathematics that the shortest distance is sometimes not a straight line? Same is true with HR. You must go over their head to HR investigations, the EEOC, or any outside sane body.
HR Generalists are coached to listen, not react and then go directly to the manager, believe the manager, and then go into cover-up mode. Even if they realize that something DID happen, they will do nothing for you. Anything to defend the Company so it doesn’t blow up. If you don’t take a strong approach, you might as well take no action since your manager will now hate you and “manage you out”.
Firstly, as advised, write down everything. Make sure the meeting is documented on your calendar by an Invite. Then, if you think there was any, I mean any remote possibility, that someone outside heard the tirade, ask that someone to file an anonymous complaint about hearing a HOSTILE WORK and DISCRIMINATORY ENVIRONEMENT when they heard your manager when they walked by the office, or meeting room. That anonymous person should at least be able to describe you as a possible witness. "It appeared to be a direct report, woman with dark hair". Make sure you use the right legal words about HOSTILE and potential DISCRIMINATION and then the Company is legally bound to follow up. If you don’t use the strong language they will cast it off as ‘nothing happened’ and what they don’t know cannot hurt them is their approach. It’s a legal defense actually, so that is why HR tries to extinguish before they have to know too much.
That third party can file an anonymous complaint at microsoftintegrity.com, where the complaint goes above the HR Generalist's head to HR investigations. This way, they have to follow up, and say they received an 'anonymous' complaint to your manager, and they will have to follow up with you as a "potential witness", and then you can say, well in fact yes, I recall that day vividly - let me look at my notes and hand them a written copy. One, you will not appear the complaining body (they may suspect it, but don't confirm it) and two, HR will believe it more than they do their own employees, and they have a potential witness they have to deal with. The process can take several months, unfortunately to actually happen, as they hope you will leave the Company and then they have nothing to follow up on.
Apple breaks 10% market share in US, Lenovo climbs globally
Didn't they claim Apple's share to have gone down at the company meeting?
Didn't they also claim BS numbers regarding Windows Server vs Linux by not even taking into account the overwhelming number of non-OEM Linux installs? Hint to execs: almost nobody buys servers with Linux pre-installed, so comparing server sales with Linux vs Windows Server is dumb.
Why the continued delusions?
Your fearless leaders are there to inspire you to work harder for the glory of the company.
They don't want to burden you with facts that conflict with their message of hope for the future.
Increasing your productivity by telling you a story is more cost effective than paying you more.
You're there to "make a difference" ... to the partner's performance based compensation.
Microsoft Throws Windows 7 Parade, iPhone Funeral (PICTURES)
Just curious....has anyone had a GOOD experience with GroupHealth? My friend calls it "GroupDeath," which doesn't fill me with confidence.
If you have ordinary health problems, the doctors at GroupHealth are good enough.
No matter where you go doctors often miss things and patients don't think to mention symptoms because it doesn't fit their understanding of a symptom (e.g. changes in behavior can also be a symptom).
Book: The Checklist Manifesto
The book’s main point is simple: no matter how expert you may be, well-designed check lists can improve outcomes (even for Gawande’s own surgical team). The best-known use of checklists is by airplane pilots. Among the many interesting stories in the book is how this dedication to checklists arose among pilots.
But now KT is still cutting and slashing. I know a number of co-workers who have seen their group budgets cut so deeply they can't even execute. Some very critical internal and external projects are grossly under funded while scope is expanding.
You can't run Microsoft like Walmart, and it feels like that is exactly what management is trying to do.
You are going to find out if KT can run Microsoft like Walmart.
Plus, at Microsoft, he has new toys to play with like employees on H1B visas who can't change jobs -- "Get it done or go home" is money in the bank.
I missed the deadline because I couldn't checkin the code on time. And that is because a "senior" colleague hold-off my checkin for about 1.5 months. everytime I went to him for CR, he would just send me back saying that he is working on some high pri stuff ( which he was), he postponed my CR S+ 5 times. I was under clean and explicit intructions from my manager that I encourage feedback from this colleague and incorporate it, and so I did that.
Giving bad advice on how to get things done at Microsoft is one way to get rid of someone.
At a stack rank meeting, your manager is not going to mention how he told you to get something done but people are going to notice that it didn't get done.
Visibility.
You're the one that is going to look like a loser at the end of the year - not your manager and not your "senior" colleague.
"When it comes to choosing between your interests and Microsoft's, HR chooses Microsoft."
Correct
Perhaps some people here are thinking of HR as a kind of benevolent workers union. It isn’t.
If you want someone to stand up for your interests then you need to bring a Union into the MSFT workplace. If you don’t think that Unions are a good idea then don’t complain when the Company gets away with treating you like garbage. Stealth layoffs, ageism, cuts to benefits, indefensible U10 stack-rankings, and general workplace unpleasantness are all things that you could take up with your Union Officials.
You may not think that Unions are a great idea, but if you feel that MSFT life is unfair then the choice is simple; either accept the Corporate shafting, or do get together and actually something about it!
….or just keep whining on mini about how unfair your life is.
My manager hurled verbal abuses (every single one of them from regular and slang gutter vocab) at me today for no apparent reason. I am extremely upset about this, but he also subtly warned of dire consequences if ever I ever complained to anybody when he realized he went overboard. It was unbelievable. This company is really going down into pits.
Can someone advice what I should be doing? I am not able to make up my mind.
He threw his fit behind closed doors.
He's hoping you'll react to it with something similarly inappropriate publicly making you look like the one with the problem.
Change jobs or leave Microsoft.
If I remember my history correctly, about the time KT came to MSFT, there was a big public flapdoodle at WMART about a previous project and document that came out public, presented to the WALMART BOD, about older workers, older v. younger worker productivity, healthcare costs, and the doc went as far as obliquely suggesting hiring managers hire 'healthier looking' workers, etc.
Google's jobs site sometimes prompts you with a follow-up survey that has a question that asks if you have trouble concentrating.
Google also wants to hire 'healthier looking' employees and isn't afraid to ask if you have any condition like A.D.D. that would require an American With Disabilities act accommodation.
3K * 100 K = 300 M
otherwise we would spend more we earn for our 100K FTE
Still a lot of money.
I did some quick, very very rough math from the peak of the internet bubble to today in terms of differential valuations of the top 3 new technology companies versus microsoft here it is:
Market Value Gained since bubble:
AAPL: $250B
GOOG: $180B (started later but still counts)
AMZN: $25B
Combined market value gained: $455B
Microsoft market value lost: -$315B
I am not saying MSFT could have gained dollar for dollar if it would have had the right vision (which obviously needs a visionary leader) and execution (which needs non-nepotism appointed sub-leaders/vice peons sorry VPs), but come on Board, wake up from your hibernation and show Corporate America that there is at least one board which is doing its job at the helm.
Just curious....has anyone had a GOOD experience with GroupHealth? My friend calls it "GroupDeath," which doesn't fill me with confidence.
Nothing but good. Saved my daughters life finding an extremely rare (think Dr. House rare) medical condition. My entire family has had nothing but outstanding treatment. Royal PITA having to go to Group Health pharmacies only, that is really my only complaint.
That glassdor survey seems a bit questionable. Out of 1140 votes, it's at exactly 50/50 ? The chances of that are less than (1 - 1/2)^1140 if I remember my probability theory right.
Those seems pretty odd odds, any idea on how credible that survey is, Mini ?
>I just have to say due to bad advice by HR, I signed up for the HMO they are talking about my first year.<
The recent talk is of an HSA, not an HMO. There's a world of difference. Educate yourself.
"My manager hurled verbal abuses (every single one of them from regular and slang gutter vocab)..."
It will take courage but you should report him to HR.
Reporting your manager's misconduct to HR is, probably, the last thing you want to do. See comments in previous posts here on mini.
Let's say your manager secretly wiretapped phones of all his direct reports, stores porn on his work computer, sells customer data to competitors and verbally abuses everyone in the office. Even in that case, reporting such activities to human resources is a suicide to your career at Microsoft.
I've witnessed several cases like this at Microsoft and they never ended well for those who reported the violations. Let's say in such cases all individuals (no matter how bright or valuable they were) who reported were asked to leave the company within a year. Those who complained and stayed were not complaining about serious enough matters.
What will happen is that HR will start investigation addressing your complain. This itself may take several months. Your manager will terrorize you from that day on. Since your career depends on your manager, it will not be a happy outcome. HR will claim that they protect your identity and will not reveal who complain -- do not believe it. Your manager will know you ratted him.
If there are legal issues involved in your case HR will make sure that no evidence exists that can hurt the company. You will be asked by HR to delete any evidence as well. Now, which side do you want to play?
In a couple of months, the original case above will turn into: "phones were verified by IT staff and all is good, we verified manager's computer and no illegal files were found and we reformatted it just in case, the customer data was never sold and the individual reporting that activity just never liked the manager, and we asked employees and confirmed that verbal abuse never crossed the line of being inappropriate."
That will be the end of "investigation". You will be reporting to the same manager and getting U10 will prevent you from leaving to another team. If you think you will be covered whistleblower's status -- you're wrong, complaining to internal HR typically does not count. Besides, everything you tell to HR WILL be used against you, and HR will twist the facts into a pretzel where you will come as the one who does not appreciate working for the greatest company. You may find that your mail server is having technical issues and your mail be lost. Your machine may also have a glitchy hard drive shortly after you file a report with HR. Keep in mind that IT has access to your machine.
If you are ready to move out, at least out of the team (will likely be better for you), feel free to complain to HR. Collecting evidence on non-MS computer, filing a report with agencies like EEOC or others, bypassing the HR might be a better approach.
"My manager hurled verbal abuses (every single one of them from regular and slang gutter vocab)..."
It will take courage but you should report him to HR.
.... continue
That will be the end of "investigation". You will be reporting to the same manager and getting U/10 will prevent you from leaving to another team. If you think you will be covered whistleblower's status -- you're wrong, complaining to internal HR typically does not count. Besides, everything you tell to HR WILL be used against you, and HR will twist the facts into a pretzel where you will come as the one who does not appreciate working for the greatest company. You may find that your mail server is having technical issues and your mail be lost. Your machine may also have a glitchy hard drive shortly after you file a report with HR.
If you are ready to move out, at least out of the team (will likely be better for you), feel free to complain to HR. Collecting evidence on non-MS computer, filing a report with agencies like EEOC or others, bypassing the HR might be a better approach.
> Furthermore, the Win7 was the last major update and Microsoft is not looking at significant investment into Windows OS.
Eh, what? I do have access to design docs for Win8 - some of them, anyway - and it'll be much, much more significant than 7 ever was.
7 was mostly correcting past mistakes, which was awesomely packaged by marketing - still an epic win for us of course, but don't make any mistakes about the real causes. 8 will be the real game changer.
The Cadillac thing doesn't take effect until 2018. Not 2014. The amount for family is $27,500. You only get taxed for amount above that.
So if the amount is $28,000. You only get taxed on the $500 portion.
Is that clear?
Just a thought from an outsider. It sounds like the health care change is to avoid the Cadillac plan tax that takes effect in 2014
AAPL is now worth $65billion more than MSFT. GOOG is at $192billion. How long before they surpass us? And how long after that will SteveB tell us again that as CEO, he has no control over the stock price? I so wish that Nokia had have recruited Steve instead of Elop ...
Student recruitment ... oh my God what a pathetic response from our CEO. Someone else posted this but the link was truncated (ohh sorry SteveB, that means cut short).
http://www.techflash.com/seattle/2010/10/why_microsoft_ballmers_reply_to_underwhelmed_college_student.html
"Until Ballmer is bolted out, this culture wont change and true innovation wont happen until then."
Google did their part to assist. Now they could potentially pass MS on marketcap as well and just in time for November's shareholder meeting.
>>KINECT = response to Wii
Um, except for the fact that it doesn't need a controller. If you don't think that's innovative, well, paint me purple and call me Shirley.
Technically speaking it's a huge difference but practically the systems are more or less the same, i.e., you play games by moving around in front of your TV. From an engineering standpoint the cameras in the Kinect are neat but the controllers for the Wii and PS3 (Move) provide a much cheaper, simpler, and more robust solution to the same problem. So, once again, Microsoft is playing catch-up (4 years late this time) with questionable engineering. Not something to be proud of.
Eh, what? I do have access to design docs for Win8 - some of them, anyway - and it'll be much, much more significant than 7 ever was.
A lot of Microsoft products start out with ambitious specs and end up smacking into the reality of getting things done in a culture where employees are competing against each other.
Many of the same people writing new code have to fix bugs for multiple versions of existing products and spend the time on all the process that goes along with that.
As more and more time is lost, features keep getting cut or postponed to a later release until the product eventually ships.
What you are reading in the specs and what will make it out the door are two very different things.
Fanboy, Apple's share did go down fiscal year over year, which despite the time lag is what the company meeting is about. Deal with it. This is just in data for last quarter. In fact it's still subject to revision once Apple announces results. But they do appear to have increased share this past quarter.
Sorry, not a fanboy. But thanks for the insightful comment.
I have no Macs at home...just Windows Server and Linux machines. Have a good weekend.
"Fanboy, Apple's share did go down fiscal year over year, which despite the time lag is what the company meeting is about. Deal with it. This is just in data for last quarter. In fact it's still subject to revision once Apple announces results. But they do appear to have increased share this past quarter."
Hmm... IIRC, the company meeting numbers that were presented claimed something like 3% share. How is it all of a sudden 10% for a single quarter in just PC sales?
I agree with original poster...seems like wishful thinking for KT (and maybe his commitments).
Also, don't be a hater. ;)
Just witnessed a stealth layoff yesterday in Services HQ. Guy has been in MS for 11 years - SQL guru; certainly above 50 years of Age now.
"My manager hurled verbal abuses (every single one of them from regular and slang gutter vocab)..."
"It will take courage but you should report him to HR."
Forget about reporting to HR that verbal abuse...it will be worthless because they work to defend MSFT against their employees and not to defend you against any abuse coming from MSFT...don't be naive!
Let me suggest you an alternate solution:
First of all, buy a Mini Digital Voice Recorder Pen or, even better, a Voice-activated DVR Micro Camera and record every verbal abuse you're receiving.
With the help of these useful devices, you can record all the "interactions" you'd have in a day with your nice boss, and then download their contents every night to your personal computer at home.
At some point in time, you'll be fed up, but you will have enough solid "material" to go with a legal attorney and file a lawsuit against Microsoft, not only against your boss.
Just don't accept the abuse anymore! In the meantime, do not take on that energy. Allow it to pass up and over you, not through you...
PLEASE:
Don't forget to provide "context" to your recordings by talking to your device providing the date & time, every time you arrive at the Office. By doing so, you'll begin to create a "timeline" of every interaction with your boss.
If you know you'll have a meeting (1:1 or something else) with your boss, just remember to indicate the date & hour before you attend it, just to provide even more context to the recordings.
More information about the PEN at:
http://www.brickhousesecurity.com/dp4802.html
More information about the DVR at: http://www.brickhousesecurity.com/small-color-mini-camera.html
More than anytime in my 10+ yr career, I seriously think Ballmer needs to go. He is in over his head. he does not possesses the right combination of vision and acumen to lead this company. Perhaps he never had, but the evidence is now seriously clear to me that this is the case. I am loyal to Microsoft, but not to Ballmer anymore. He needs to go before it's too late.
This blog seems to focus most on venting, but I'd be interesting in hearing some counter examples as well. There are definitely bad teams, but there are good teams as well.
I'd like to hear from people what teams are really good to work in. So if you are happy with your job at Microsoft, can you share what team it is?
What will happen is that HR will start investigation addressing your complain. This itself may take several months. Your manager will terrorize you from that day on. Since your career depends on your manager, it will not be a happy outcome. HR will claim that they protect your identity and will not reveal who complain -- do not believe it. Your manager will know you ratted him.
+1. Watch for this tactic. When your manager is guilty and the company recognizes it has exposure, IT WILL USE THE CLOCK. An investigation can take 6-7 months or longer: think in terms of "how far away is the next annual review in which my manager will be giving me a U/10?" to determine the exact timeframe.
I heard of one person who received a report from HR on the conclusion of their investigation just a few days after receiving a U/10, and more than 6 months after the filed the internal complaint.
I have no experience with this, but based on what I know, if I were ever in this situation and was not successful for some reasn in moving to another team, I would give HR a finite amount of time to investigate and resolve the situation. 90 days at most. I would let them know that the situaton would be escalated to the EEOC and/or a private attorney after that point, to give them an incentive not to stall. I would remind them of the dates on all related correspondence, to help them to see that it will not look good for them to be seen by the court as using the clock against the employee. And I would make sure I made the complaint at least 6 months away from my next annual review.
Why would I be foolish enough to threaten involving the EEOC? If I was in situation where I felt a complaint to HR was necessary, my assumption would be that my career is likely over, and that the only way to save it was the great longshot of convincing HR to do something that would have that result. We already know that if HR is allowed to control the clock, that does not happen. I have not yet yeard any results from an employee who's tried to control the clock. So that is what I would try.
"That glassdor survey seems a bit questionable. Out of 1140 votes, it's at exactly 50/50 ? The chances of that are less than (1 - 1/2)^1140 if I remember my probability theory right."
You don't. A vote is considered a Bernoulli trial, and the number of successes (yes votes, etc) is binomially distributed:
(n choose k) r^k (1-r)^(n-k).
Letting r = 0.5 (fair vote assumption) n = 1140, k=570, you get approximately 0.02 (I used BINOMDIST in Excel).
In other words, you would expect this 2% of the time. This isn't surprising. Look at political elections, where r is often close to 0.5 and the election result is often a near-tie.
"(which obviously needs a visionary leader) and execution (which needs non-nepotism appointed sub-leaders/vice peons sorry VPs)"
- agree completely, MS leadership needs complete detox cleansing. There are too many bad potatoes at the VP level and above appointed by the biggest bad bald balmy potato.
- After the US banks, I think MS is another example of how the board which instead of representing shareholder interests by monitoring the CEO is actually in bed with the CEO himself. No wonder the judgments are cloudy here...
- MS shareholders are lame, they should seriously consider firing the board since the board is not firing the CEO. Approx 65% shareholders are institutional investors. They should have the balls to name the alternate board. http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=MSFT. Well, there is always a possibility that stock drops below $20 which then becomes attractive for activist shareholder like Icahn to stir the pot.
>8 will be the real game changer.
From what I've seen 8 will either be a great success or a MASSIVE failure, I am actually, unfortunately, thinking more the latter. There is nothing original I have seen in the documents, lots of copying of things from other platforms and a desperate bid to pretend people still care about the OS.
Essentially planning was entered with the 'we have a multi-billion dollar thing here that is under serious attack, how do we prevent profit erosion', which generally leads to more lock-in and proprietary stuff, and less innovation and customer focused benefit.
Hilariously enough they haven't come to the conclusion that you win market share / customers by being GOOD at the fundamentals and innovative in the rest. Their idea seems to be lock-in, copying and incremental improvement (with a side of 'ideas so bad you have to scratch your head'). As an employee and shareholder I hope I am wrong, but from what I have seen I think there may be some tech press saying 'wow, this is new and different' but I don't think it will translate into increased user loyalty or really defend us against the move to slates and mobiles and away from traditional PCs/laptops for the broader consumer sector. Nor will their ideas around making the PC an attractive place for ISVs really lead to anything, imo, as from all the presentations I have seen they just 'don't get it'.
>>KINECT = response to Wii
Um, except for the fact that it doesn't need a controller. If you don't think that's innovative, well, paint me purple and call me Shirley.
...
So, once again, Microsoft is playing catch-up (4 years late this time) with questionable engineering. Not something to be proud of.
Let's not forget we are essentially betting that most Americans (our initial 'target' audience) actually WANT to be that physically active while playing games. This is a country of rampant and increasing obesity. Even with its movement based gaming you can play the Wii while sitting or with minimal actual movement/exertion. The Kinect, from what I can see, requires pretty much full body involvement for every game. It demos well and is a nifty bit of engineering, but I have a hard time believing most gamers really want to be tired out by their games.
Plus you can't really play the games for hours, since you would be exhausted probably after 40 or so minutes of strenuous moving about.
So we have launched a product that, while innovative, bets on people wanting to play games in a way that is exhausting and lasts only a fairly short period of time, which pretty much describes the opposite of the entire XBox user base.
"Student recruitment ... oh my God what a pathetic response from our CEO."
"Our" CEO, troll? What's pathetic about it?
is it bait and switch in job offer?
while attempting to switch teams within MSFT, a hiring manager offered me a role, once I said yes for the offer, the hiring manager tells me that the work I was supposed to do is moved to another team, so I would be joining the other team under the same director. I am not sure this is negative development or something which I just have to take it.
"Google did their part to assist. Now they could potentially pass MS on marketcap as well and just in time for November's shareholder meeting."
Potentially isn’t part of the equation anymore. It’s inevitable. But you’re right, it could happen by November after those numbers, especially with Apple and MS yet to report (both of which should weigh on the stock). Otherwise it will be early in the New Year. I don’t think it changes his immediate fate if it happens before the meeting. There are enough developments just this year alone for shareholders so inclined to give him the boot. If the board sensed any real possibility of that happening a “retirement” would have been announced. He’ll get reelected but this will also be his last year as CEO. Unfortunately that just delays a potential turnaround and saddles his replacement with a competitive position that will have deteriorated further, resulting in the need for even more extreme measures at that time.
The thing I haven't heard anyone talking about is how much will be taken out of our paychecks to help cost-share. HR admittedly does not know yet. That's what Ritchie said. So there's that cost now too, in addition to the deductible. In essence, HR is asking us to buy a product now without knowing what it actually cost us in two years, when they start cost-sharing. The bait is the "extra contributions" of the first years. Wait til that paycheck contribution hits. That'll erase that pathetic merit increase.
Honestly, I really have no idea of how our management think.
Health insurance
As always, the best people will leave the company first. I hope MS is going to give them a raise before it is too late?
Kinnet
It is just a controller, not sure why our management are so excited about it. Can it use to play rock band? I truly don't believe Wii remote is more innoviate then Wii play or Wii Fit.
If we can use Kinnet to play Halo, I will think it is kind of cool.
Window Phone
Window phone is suppose to boost employee productivity and save people from their own phone.
The idea of giving every employee a free WM7 is the best idea so far from our management. It is innoviate and bold, and really need some leadership skill to do it.
The upper management decided we shouldn't go all the way, so, employee will need to pay sign a 2 years contract.
I can understand why, but where is our morale money go? Why not stop employee replace their laptop or desktop?
No mistake, it is still cool, can't really ask for more, but the upper management doesn't seem to have a long term vision, they really focus on short term profit.
This whole thing is so typical of America today. The plan disproportionately affects those at the bottom.
If you are a partner or CEO pulling home well into the six figures - what is a few extra grand out of pocket? If you play your cards right you will get it back on the stock perfomance anyway.
It is the little guy that is making fifty or seventy five- with a health problem that just took it in the butt here with a 5%-10% pay cut on these co-pays.
Sigh....
<<"The recent talk is of an HSA, not an HMO. There's a world of difference. Educate yourself."
>>
The Group Health Cooperative Plan is an HMO.
Just read the page. Sounds like we get to pay all of our own prescriptions now, in full.
I would imagine that most people will now be just under the annual cut-off.
I left MS (Bing) just over 2 months ago to join Google and wow.. they really hasn't been a single day that I've regretted it:
* 30+% overall raise in comp
* free high quality and healthy food
* people on my team are much smarter
* I don't need to wait hours for code to compile
That sounds a lot like the Microsoft I knew - many years ago.
> Arranging deck chairs on the Titanic won't keep the ship from sinking."
Don't rain on my parade. My idea to save the company:
1024 bit desktop icons. :>
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld
Yes, when federal income taxes are 50% - 70% you get nice schools and health care.
:rolls eyes:
Company salad bars are filled with cheap pasta and potatoes heaped with nasty non-nutritious, high calorie sauces, rather than greens and the rainbow of fresh things that nutritionists tell us to eat off a salad bar (Lincoln Square and maybe Commons and 120 excepted from this criticism).
One thing we can ALL AGREE has gone right to the crapper at Microsoft: the cafeterias.
It regularly costs me $7 just to get some fried rice.
I remember back when the cafes were open until 7PM and they would make you whatever you wanted. I remember when Microsoft served dinner every night and everyone stayed late and worked.
if you are smart you will rise.
This has always been true. Unfortunately, it used to mean technically smart: now it means politically smart.
+1
I wish I could get some of my meetings with my boss on video. If anyone wants to see what the hell is wrong with this company, look no farther than lower management.
I was actually told to not work too many hours recently by my manager because it makes others on the team look bad.
Management is running this place into the ground; we are going to be the next AOL.
>>You are going to find out if KT can run Microsoft like Walmart.
Well, when you find out let me know. You can send me a post card to my new address in silicon valley.
- If you want to work in an organization that is stable, make a world class salary and write code that impacts hundreds of millions of users, then I would still highly recommend the Windows division.
---
I've worked in the Windows division since Windows 95. Someone here is feeding you people the company line.
Unless you are a partner, adjusted for inflation, salaries here have been flat for years. That is a fact.
The only reason my code impacts "hundreds of millions of users" is because it gets spammed on to hundreds of millions of computers by OEM's.
Nothing to be proud of.
"I dreamt of working as software developer at Microsoft in Windows division... Or should that dream of mine be cancelled?"
You need to dream bigger dreams. If you achieve this one you are going to end up being sorely disappointed my friend.
Personally, I didn't come to Microsoft for a job. I can get a job anywhere- and in better places than Redmond, WA.
I came to Microsoft to ship billion dollar products and make myself rich doing it so I can make a better life for myself and my family.
It has yet to materialize.
-- Perhaps some people here are thinking of HR as a kind of benevolent workers union. It isn’t.
So true.
I work for a manager that is widely known as a complete douchebag at the company. Everyone I talk to that has ever worked for him directly ot indirectly has something to say. Bad managers can do a lot of damage.
But what can you do?
You can't go to HR. You can't go to their skip-skip to complain, whom probably promoted them in the first place.
Their should be some way to raise legitamate concerns about these managers without risking flushing your career down the toilet.
Unfortunately today all you can really do is go to the kitchen, make popcorn, and watch as the company implodes at the hands of these morons.
Well, for the record, my husband has worked in the developer division at MS for 5+ years and loves the work that he does and the team he works with and is very successful there.
The development is a much better place to be than test. Their is a lot more professional respect among colleagues.
Instead, we have accreted a scum of supremely arrogant and ruthless individuals who truly know how to succeed in *any* large corporation.
After 10+ years, I've learned my lesson. I'll never give a manager honest (meaning other than 110% positive) feedback about anything.
If you do, then you quietly get tagged as "negative", which is probably the most damning label you can be given: it automatically invalidates anything you've ever said or will say, in the eyes of those that control your success.
I had the same thing happen to me. I just don't understand what has happened to this place. There is just no passion here anymore.
Instead of the rewards going to the passionate contributors that work hard and put in all hours - it is all flowing to the 9-5 managers that game the system.
Something is so wrong around here.
>>I dreamt of working as software developer at Microsoft in Windows division...
Well, my dream is to go build the next Microsoft Windows.
.. just not for Microsoft since I would like to also get paid for doing it.
Student recruitment ... oh my God what a pathetic response from our CEO.
Personally I am sick and tired of hearing these CEOs at these multi billion dollar companies whine and complain about how the public school system is inadequate to provide them with highly specialized technology workers. It is such a crock.
What they are really saying is that it would be cheaper for the company if tax payers footed the bill to train his workers for him.
The arrogance is really amazing.
> To think that you're going to get by with C and C++ indefinitely, and that everything new that comes along is gratuitous fluff, is (IMO) intellectual laziness.
Sounds like the Windows division to me. They are paving the way to the future... one LPWSTR at a time...
If I remember my history correctly, about the time KT came to MSFT, there was a big public flapdoodle at WMART about a previous project and document that came out public, presented to the WALMART BOD, about older workers, older v. younger worker productivity, healthcare costs, and the doc went as far as obliquely suggesting hiring managers hire 'healthier looking' workers, etc.
I saw a special on TV that showed that WMART was taking out special life insurance policies (known as dead peasants in industry jargon) on their own workers. People were complaining at the top that not enough workers were dying.
I wonder if Microsoft does the same? Does anyone know?
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/insurance/p64954.asp
But this is just the nature of business: why would the company pay me more than a college hire? Because theoretically I add more value, so the more I get paid, the harder I have to work, because I have to add 2x to 3x more value than a college hire. Will that be easy? Hell no, it won’t! I have family, kids, all that old-guy jazz, and these college hires are sleeping over at Microsoft, working like crazy, they are hungry, so I’ll have to work my butt off if I want to make 2x to 3x more than these guys. I don’t think we need a formal study/research to prove this fact.
I would like to see the study that shows that our interns are working hard. Because I haven't ever seen it.
Personally I think our intern program is a big joke. If they want to evangelize the Microsoft way to college students - how about the find a way to do it that doesn't waste so much of our time and money.
“But investors will reward the innovative (Apple, Google) and not the follow-ons or copy-cats. First mover advantage is a concept Microsoft exec's will never understand.”
You realize that Apple and Google haven't been first movers in almost anything they currently do, right? In fact in several cases even MS was involved for years before either entered the segment. It just failed to become the leader, or in some cases to sustain that leadership after securing it (tablets, browsers to a lesser extent).
There's also no market support for your assertion that an "innovative" premium exists and is being applied to either Apple or Google. Both trade in line with current and expected growth. In fact Apple, which is most often cited as #1 most innovative (some of it deserved, much of it not) trades at quite a discount to forward growth, which is why it should reach $350 and perhaps $400. And Google was decreasing until its recent earnings restablished it as a growth story. The market values earnings. It also values growth because that’s often an indicator of future earnings.
MS has an innovation problem, on
that we agree. But the rest of your comment isn’t grounded in facts.
Reading the comments three thing become apparent:
Leadership is incompetent
The reward system is broken
Employees have given up
Google and Apple won't have to worry about a MS comeback. It ain't gonna happen. RIP Microsoft. You had a good run.
"My manager hurled verbal abuses (every single one of them from regular and slang gutter vocab)..."
"It will take courage but you should report him to HR."
Don't ever think to report the abuse to HR: ¡It's worthless! They work FOR Microsoft and receive their paychecks FROM Microsoft. Don't be naive...
Instead of that, buy a small Mini DVR and tape him every time while he's offending you.
Then, get yourself a very good lawyer, let him/her hear what you've recorded so far and file a suit against your boss and Microsoft for allowing him to do what he does. Follow carefully his/her instructions....
More info in: http://www.brickhousesecurity.com/small-color-mini-camera.html
Just like with any point of view, there are the two extremes, and the truth lies in the middle.
Not necessarily: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation.
Benefits were never the reason real software talent came to Microsoft. Neither were stock options, bonus and/or direct compensation. The great talent came looking for an opportunity to change the world. When it became evident Microsoft was no longer driving change, the talent leaves. Software talent is hired every year, eventually they realize Microsoft is a Sales org, not a Technology org, and they leave the company in search of a tech driven company. This has been true since Bill handed the reins to Steve, and it will remain a Sales driven company until the guy at the top is changed.
Don't hold your breath waiting, I almost passed out after waiting 8 years.
When Trust Matters
If you can get an offer from Google, grab it and don't look back
Google's purpose is to take hunger away from people so they don't go to startups and threaten the one-trick pony. With just 30% comp bump, mission accomplished.
In 8-10 years, unless you go into senior management, Google will throw you out with open source skills no enterprise wants.
Google’s ‘Don’t Be Evil’ Mantra Is ‘Bullshit’ Google tracks your behavior on all its services, like GMail (or Blogger), via cookies. It stores web search history from your IP for 6 months (where do you think precise Google Suggest comes from?).
Microsoft's technology has been good for many partners in the industry, including, ironically, Google.
Google's technology has only been good for Google.
Folks, We create a FACEBOOK account and expose all these corrupt managers who have damaged our careers?
"The idea that we can "all" collectively improve the company by improving our own small portion is nonsense. It's like shopkeepers in a town with a coal plant being told to concentrate on keeping the sidewalks in front of their own stores coal-dust-free rather than bitching about the big plant spewing pollution over the whole town. I don't know why so many people have such trouble understanding this."
I have trouble understanding this. Positive action that seems futile on the surface almost always has some good consequences—even if the sidewalk is only clean for half the day, that’s good news for people that walk on it then. Bitching on the other hand just keeps people stuck 1) doing nothing, 2) feeling helpless, and 3) the sidewalks are never clean.
Ozzie is gone....
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2371047,00.asp
Mini,
It would be great if you did a post of MSFT's competition. I think the comments could be interesting and useful from a Microsoft perspective.
What do you think about AAPL's latest quarter? They generated over $20B in revenue which is even more than Microsoft. When you include the iPad in the category of 'PC sales', Apple now has 25% of the market. This is a big deal for Microsoft. The world has really changed.
I'd love to see a discussion on this.
MSFT should tie the review system with the HealthCare benefits. Those with BMI of 25 or higher automatically get a U/10 and Sr. Mgmgt can't be exempt. I bet that would get lots of folks motivated to take better care of themselves. Or allow those that opt for voluntary drug/ETOH/tabacoo screening and under a BMI of 25 to get keep their old plans.
For a company in Seattle, MSFT must have a higher precentage of overweight employees than the metro area AVG. from what I can see.
One question: Who's Ray Ozzie and why does his departure matter?
Ray Ozzie is out.
http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/archives/225271.asp
Holy cow. The same day Apple announces $20B in revenue, Ray Ozzie steps down.
Ozzie was probably not the right guy, but who will be the "Steve Jobs" of Microsoft? Someone needs to have the technical vision and credibility to push it forward. Steve Jobs has it. Larry Ellison at Oracle has it. Ballmer most certainly does not.
For all the complaining these past many years about Microsoft, both from within and without, remarkably little has been accomplished. I don't think people realize how dire the situation is. The ground has totally shifted from right under your feet.
Employees should write an open letter to the Board demanding a new CEO. Everyone should sign it. Apple's stellar growth and leadership of entire markets is the wake up call. The company is in deep trouble and most people don't seem to have noticed.
"I would not be surprised to see Ray finding a new endeavor sooner than later."
Congratulations on a stellar prediction!
And Ray Ozzie is OUTTA HERE....
7 was mostly correcting past mistakes, which was awesomely packaged by marketing - still an epic win for us of course, but don't make any mistakes about the real causes. 8 will be the real game changer.
Ah, cool, so Longhorn is finally getting released? :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9ifQvQCO7Y
I understand "Corporate culture" all the in fighting, bitching and moaning over benefits, etc... But out here in the real world.
Microsoft is an "also ran" Apple and Google are sure doing a good job of kicking your ass, while you all corporate together. Good luck in your corporate business retrenchment strategy. While you are doing this as you have seen, IE will soon loose its majority. Office will be next, then finally windows. Your attempt at windows phone 7 is a waste. Cloud is another. The average consumer has grown beyond you. Then there is only so much corporate business. Then there are the countries who run your software "pirated". Then there is your current "health care renovation". Do you not know this is another attempt to get people to leave. Can't you not even figure this simple thing out? But alas you people there somewhere in your own thundercloud cannot figure out that thousands and thousands daily are leaving you to your infighting selves. Can anyone there spell droid or apple... Mini, your becoming someone else besides what you started out to be. To your own companies detriment.
Lost Customer
Another one bites the dust..... When will it be SteveB's turn?
"I would not be surprised to see Ray finding a new endeavor sooner than later."
Please Mini, in your next post, say: "I would not be surprised to see Steve finding a new endeavor sooner than later."
Who knows, maybe it's crazy enough it just might work!
Even Ray Ozzie is starting to think no-one can turn this ship around.
Kinda worrying when he steers them into the cloud and then abandons ship before anyone realises it's actually an iceberg.
Azure has great potential but they need to simplify the story around developing and manageing apps (and sort out the cost so it's viable for small startups to dip a toe in)
"You missed his point.
Arranging deck chairs on the Titanic won't keep the ship from sinking."
And another spectacular example. Only this time lacking any creativity whatsoever.
Ad hominem doesn't make the OP any less correct.
First of all realize that there is an 80/20 rule at work here. 80% of the comments come from the 20% who are disaffected for one reason or another. That's excluding the trolls and outsiders who have a bone to pick with Microsoft, Ballmer, immigrant engineers or corporate America.
I'll add one:
There's also a cute habit of some to manufacture statistics to 'prove' their points when they have no evidence other than their gut feeling.
Here's a former Microsoft manager that thinks the performance curve is wonderful but he's moving to Facebook.
For those who like to "accentuate the positive", he sounds like a manager you would like.
The Singing Detective - Accentuate the Positive
What he says about having ideas but not implementing them is very true.
If you have a great idea but are not in a position to implement it at Microsoft, you would be better off quitting and starting a company (he only recommends stop talking about it).
Good ideas don't get you a higher review score at the end of the year but being in a position to implement them can.
Goodbye Microsoft, Hello Facebook!
Good ideas are a dime a dozen. Great ideas are usually laughed at. Neither sees the light of day without you taking action. Do the work to prove your idea, or stop talking about it. In an entrepreneurship class in college, I pitched the idea of an online grocery delivery service and got laughed off stage. Hurt, but convinced of my great genius, I returned the following week to pitch the idea of online movie rentals using the postal service. I called it NetVideo. Everyone thought it was absurd. I used to tell this story to bolster what I thought was my streak of unrecognized, prognosticating technical genius. These days, I tell the story to remind myself that in the end, only action and execution matter.
I have trouble understanding this. Positive action that seems futile on the surface almost always has some good consequences—even if the sidewalk is only clean for half the day, that’s good news for people that walk on it then. Bitching on the other hand just keeps people stuck 1) doing nothing, 2) feeling helpless, and 3) the sidewalks are never clean.
The phenomenon is called learned helplessness.
Wasting your time in a situation where you can't make the changes you want is not good for your physical or mental health.
If you find yourself in such a situation, it is better to leave.
"Result: comment in my review that I missed the deadline without notifying the management on time."
You do realize that you got dinged for lack of communication rather than for a missed deadline, right? All the details pertaining to code review arent the issue... you failed to communicate critical information to your management... sounds justified to me. Do you know what your lack of communication cost your manager in their review?
This is the problem with so many in the bottom 30%... you look everywhere else but the mirror...
MSFT should tie the review system with the HealthCare benefits. Those with BMI of 25 or higher automatically get a U/10 and Sr. Mgmgt can't be exempt. I bet that would get lots of folks motivated to take better care of themselves. Or allow those that opt for voluntary drug/ETOH/tabacoo screening and under a BMI of 25 to get keep their old plans.
Dear God, I'd hope if they implement something along those lines (which would be fine with me), they'd at least have the sense not to use a bullshit metric like BMI.
BMI is purely a "back of the envelope" calculation almost guaranteed to be inaccurate. It makes no allowance for muscle mass or body type beyond height and weight.
Tom Cruise is "obese" by BMI standards. Do you still think it's a valid measure?
Ozzie wrote one of the best selling software products of all time. How many of the other msft execs have written “Hello World?” This is a software company run by folks who for the most part don’t know dick about software.
Let me suggest you an alternate solution:
First of all, buy a Mini Digital Voice Recorder Pen or, even better, a Voice-activated DVR Micro Camera and record every verbal abuse you're receiving.
Before doing that, be sure to read RCW 9.73.030(1)(b).
http://tinyurl.com/2cn55dt
I'm so sick and tired of Steve Ballmer. Everyone in Microsoft (except the ass-kissing individuals that are only sucking money), knows that Steve is destroying the company. I'm afraid everyone leaving the company, low rank or high rank, entry levels or Chris Liddell and Ray Ozzie, everyone is sick and tired of Steve Ballmer.
Steve, please have the dignity to resign. Don't worry, you are not here to save us all, and we will do just fine without you.
The only thing to "admire" at Steve is his cunning ability to lure the board to elect him again and again.
Great thread. Look, the point of an HSA plan is that employees, especially younger ones, can save money and build up capital in the account. So let's say you're 30 and the first two years you do not have medical expenses beyond the first $1,000.00. Presto! You now have at least $4,000.00 that you can draw on in future years to pay those out-of-pocket expenses. It works well at my tiny (10 person) publishing company.
As to the Microsoftie who fears an extra $3750 will cause new foreclosures--I have to agree with those who say "Welcome to the real world" where people tighten their belts an extra $3750.
no question that the worst thing about ray leaving is that it positions mundie to be the CTO. I had heard for years that Mundie was trying to run Ray out.
If you have met Mundie, i doubt that you will like him, respect him or have any hope. he is a smart douchebag but not one that can build a business. While he was CEO of a public company, that company got SHUT DOWN right after he was CEO.
"Ozzie was probably not the right guy, but who will be the "Steve Jobs" of Microsoft?"
Its an impossible job. Ray was able to make progress in the cloud because that domain hadn't been 'claimed' yet. Unless a CSA has power over other product groups leaders, the role is at best just in a consultant role. Ballmer knows this, which is why he's not going to name a replacement.
Folks, We create a FACEBOOK account and expose all these corrupt managers who have damaged our careers?
Because everyone knows Microsoft is not in bed with Facebook.
Erm, no.
Mini's picked about the safest place, I think.
EXERCISE YOUR VOTE! This time when the proxy vote came in the mail, I read it, and took it seriously. VOTE BALLMER DOWN!
There is so much more to consider--like where is the money coming from to pay for healthcare in Ireland? What is their standard of living? Do you realize that their unemployment rate has been in the double digits for decades? Recently it's been close to 14%.
Seriously? By most measures the standard of living in Ireland is consistently higher than the US. AND you are wrong about those unemployment figures, for the last 10 years unemployment in Ireland was also lower than the US (though the rates in both countries have shot up over 10% recently).
Sure, the money to pay for public healthcare comes from the tax payer but by pooling a portion of our income and reducing the opportunity for massive profiteering by insurance companies and their shareholders and other vested interests, we can get a hell of a lot more medicine for our money, and live for longer to enjoy the spoils too. I don't know, but it seems like a sensible way to do things.
Anon wrote: "The Kinect, from what I can see, requires pretty much full body involvement for every game. It demos well and is a nifty bit of engineering, but I have a hard time believing most gamers really want to be tired out by their games. "
One of the markets for the Wii has been retirement facilities or physical therapists for the elderly. When my father had a hip replacement he was sent for recovery and rehab to such a facility, and I noticed they had a Wii set up in their therapy area, along with more traditional equipment.
The Kinect ought to be an even better interface for such applications.
Hi ho, Hi ho - it's off on RIF I go...
I did great job, I didn't rob, but that was not enough.
Oh me, oh my, an E and 70 then
Oh me, oh my, an A and 70 now
Hi ho, Hi ho - it's off on RIF I go...
I think I see, I know I see, the light has dimmed for me.
Oh me, oh why, has Ozzie left roost?
Oh me, oh why, will Ballmer get the boot?
>One of the markets for the Wii has been retirement facilities or physical therapists for the elderly.
Wow, what a lucrative gaming market, I hope we can lock that one up ASAP.
>The Kinect ought to be an even better interface for such applications.
No, the Kinnect involves a LOT more physical exertion. Not a great idea for the aged or recovering. The Wii offers a somewhat minimal physical exertion profile while still being fun enough to distract you from the fact you are 'exercising'. Imagine the few games you have seen demoed for Kinnect (say at the company meeting), now imagine a 90 year person playing any of them. Still think that is a good idea? Is one of our partners going to make the Aged and Recovering Pack?
The Kinect ought to be an even better interface for such applications.
2010: Microsoft enters the medical devices market, introduces the Kinect Physical Therapy System.
I'm about on my way out ... and am curious about Cobra vs. MSA. Any advice? I looked at the MSA health plans, and they appear to only apply to small businesses, not individuals. Any advice on the best way to go for someone w/ a few serious pre-existing conditions in her family?
Thx!
I'm over 40 and I still think I'm indestructable...
If I'm prudent with the money my employer deposits into that account on my behalf -- using, for example, $500 each year of a $2,500 annual contribution -- I'd have $40,000 in that account at the end of 20 years.
Very few will make it 20 years at msft. Either they will be booted in or near their 40's or they will make it into the undesirable 10% ranking before then.
Being over 40 does not mean that I need to work 2x-3x harder than the new college grad at $60,000, in order to earn my higher pay. I just need to not make as many stupid mistakes from inexperience, as the new college grad. I need to be sure not to offend everyone else with my arrogance of being young and superior to those who have 20 years of pertinent work experience. I just need to have already learned that my state college or prestigious university degree did not make me superior to those around me (well, at least not everyone). I just need to know when we have already made a mistake, and not make it again. History is a great teacher, and it's far more interesting to make a new mistake than to again make the same ones that the group made 5 years ago, when the new hire was a senior in high school and therefore unaware of the intricate cyles of technology and software development.
People don't earn more over their careers because they are old, they earn more because they earned salary increases. If everyone who is 40 is actually officially old and stupid, so be it, but perhaps experience does have value, does provide insight, and does provide those who have it with some unique advantages and knowledge, particularly if they are skilled at leading others, including new hires who are ready, willing, and able to learn and grow their abilities.
Sometimes old is old, and sometimes it looks different when you get there. None of you is getting younger. If only the young are worthy of health insurance and compensation, I say bank it while you've got it. As anyone with a teenager in their home knows, it truly must be nice to know everything. If you make it to 40 or older, you too may get to have the experience of impacting medical expenses to the org by giving birth, and all that other expensive stuff that comes from producting the next generation who will pay for your Medicare and all that.
1. Get rid of all the Walmart people. All of them. Especially KT, but all of his little minions as well. Just like all of us who didn't believe when we were force-fed the business school teachings during the "take everything from Japanese corporate culture and slam it over the top of US culture" era, you can't effectively use some short-term set of solutions that "worked" somewhere else and force them over an entirely different corporation and it's processes. It just doesn't work. Cheap retail big-box is not the same as trying to make the best software for the future. Shouldn't even be a surprise, or a consideration.
2. If you have fewer employees, but really good ones, you can pay for great medical plans, free/reduced price food during all hours they work, and keep the free pop flowing. With fewer people, they all get good space to work. You don't need to build more buildings to house the lesser beings. The idea of compensation (salary/bonus/benefits/stock) is to make them want to come to work. Stock is supposed to be a retention feature of the compensation plan, to convince them to stay instead of go work for someone else. Not having to worry about your medical bills, or leaving campus to get food, these sorts of things are supposed to free you to do great work.
3. Hire the right people, treat them well, keep bringing in new blood and repeat the first steps, and that could just be the ticket to success.
4. If you need to oh-so-badly save money, cut the stock grants of executives. Cut their cash bonuses. I like the idea of returning all compensation beyond salary for exec types to stock options instead of grants.
5. Get rid of the subset of the marketing people, those who are all slick and smoke-and-mirrors, and focus on doing great work. Not just selling the great work to the masses, but creating the great stuff.
6. Who in the SLT is willing to drop to Steve Jobs' $1 a year salary? Who has told the truth lately to anyone above them? Who has actually looked at a problem from all angles recently, and then sat down to competently solve it? Lots of things can be done better, particularly if you give up managing your manager.
7. Get rid of the climate of fear. If people do their work, give them their bonuses. I came from another tech company where the bonus % was given to everyone who did their work. If you did great work, you could earn an accelerator of like 25% to 100% of your bonus. But it was expected that if you had been hired that you were acually good, you did your work well, and you got your bonus annually. We all worked hard, and sometimes we got some big loot. Plus stock bonuses, designed to keep us there and not walk away. Hire the right people, give them the tools they need to do their jobs, and get out of the way. Does anyone remember how to do this?
6. ...Who has told the truth lately to anyone above them? ...
I did, I talked openly with my manager and his previous managers. No one wanted to know. They all exhibited ostrich syndrome. All the issues were right in front of their noses but they chose to ignore them and instead retaliate against me for daring to speak the truth or highlight the teams/their inadequacies.
My last day in Microsoft was 4 weeks ago, I didnt leave by my own free will.
Hi, I'm a L65 and was told I would be getting a Gold Star. Anyoen know how much it will be? I got one as a L64 last year ($30k of stock) but, was told it would be higher.
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