Microsoft Layoff 2009 - Day 2
Okay, not a real post put more of a page break given the incredible number of comments from the first post on the 5,000 layoff cut-back (which is really 2,000 if you listen to Ballmer since we're hiring 3,000 people in the near-term, especially to help out with Search - take comfort in that you first 1,400 and you remaining 3,600).
Feel free to post comments on any Day 2 experiences and safe feedback about the Town Hall after you've had a chance to watch it.
If you're creating any Facebook groups because of this that you'd like highlighted please let me know in the comments and I'll roll them together. I'm especially interested in any networking groups for Microsofties + local tech companies given that some excellent contributors are affected by this, so some real talent is available.
Personally, I feel like we've taken the Sword of Damocles and rammed it through a bunch of pink slips and now we intend to dangle that above the head of Microsoft for the next year and a half. All the way through the end of FY10, folks. "Cut once, cut deep." Or, you know, don't. If you have insight to this counter-intuitive plan, please share.
520 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 520 of 520the town meeting was .. odd.
i sensed more discomfort than anything else from steveB when asked about "no one said im sorry"
the first guy looked like he was about to cry which sucks as how the passive / aggressive culture demoralizes people
BillG saw the end of Microsoft coming and that's why he left. SteveB is his buddy and most SVPs are Steve's buddies or ass lickers at best. Bill did not have the guts to force them in the right direction, especially Steve. Steve thought he could spawn so many divisions hoping something would click but none did. He is not even worth a shoe salesman.
There are too many managers and too few ICs. Managers must make the recommendation for the cuts but what we have now is a stalemate situation. We will have a layoff with positive effect if managers came out and said "I am a liability, so fire me". That will never happen.
I would have liked if SteveB bowed out on his own. If not, he will be forced out one day and it will be a shameful event for SteveB. We have seen bigger empires than Microsoft collapse and the kind of people those took down with.
From now on, layoffs will be scheduled rituals at Microsoft. Not because of the economy, Microsoft is already less effective in getting anything done.
Except a few employees with family members with special needs, layoff affects us only when we over commit ourselves financially.
With all the illusion-filled luxury Microsoft has given us all these years, it is difficult to imagine working outside Microsoft. We are institutionalized. For those affected your sufferings (if any) will be short lived but you will soon figure out something good happened to you. For the rest of us still employed our long-term woes have just begun.
Why Stay at Microsoft?
Before I answer this question, let me write to all those ex-fellows that were laid off last week what I know that others far higher at the company hierarchy cannot do: “I’m sorry”.
Layoffs look like an inevitable event in the life time of a company. But it doesn’t have to be that way. It is all too familiar that companies expand beyond their areas of competence, and then have to step back and defend the home turf. The layoffs at first look like an isolated event, but in reality they are just the culmination of a very long process, which has various checkpoints at which the outcome could have been changed. It rarely happens. For the collective failure of not stopping the process that culminated with the layoffs, I’m definitely sorry.
Some friends wrote me asking what I think about the company now, and what differs from my view last Wednesday. Because of this process only, my view of the company didn’t change a bit.
I’m a middle manager in the development discipline. I didn’t have any knowledge about the layoffs in advance. Did I suspect? Surely. People should be really careful about what they wish: they can get it. Isn’t there criticism that one of the big problems at Microsoft is the lack of action? Well, there you have the action. I would do it differently, but I do not have the information that influenced executives to make the decisions that they made. They trust me to help on defining, designing, coding and shipping products. I have to trust them on making executive decisions.
Now, for why to stay: this is still a great company. I’ve worked before for several years in the industry. I can tell you that Microsoft is still the best company I know of, by a mile. The technical level of the people working at Microsoft is one or two levels above what you will experience outside, all over the world. You think that sycophant coworker you have to deal with is a moron? Look around the meeting room and see all the other 10 people roll their eyes. You are 11 great people keeping your mouths closed because you only say something when it will make a difference. That is what creates the silence filled by those that have nothing to say. Can you just excuse yourself and go to the restroom and never return? I’ve done that many times, and after a while people just go it, and would stop the non-sense and finish meetings when whatever was needed had already been said. What about just not going to some meetings? For an entire year I refused to go to a recurring weekly meeting where team leaders met without agenda for no reason. What happened? After a year other people also stopped going, and soon the absurdity was cancelled (Why it took so long!?).
Microsoft is still a meritocracy. In no other company could someone tell a GM to literally go to hell and still keep their jobs. I have done this myself, and have witnessed others doing it. It doesn’t even take a lot of courage: just the adrenaline of knowing you are right, and you have in front of you a moron hiding behind a title. You obviously need to use the right words. Don’t just say someone is obviously wrong. Ask nicely: Could you enlighten me on why you think we should do THIS when all the data that I have indicates THAT would be a better option? Give people a chance to save face, but be clear about what you believe is the right option. You may surprise yourself with the results, and you may also surprise yourself when you discover that, at times, new data will change your position.
There is not just one Microsoft: there are many. I’ve been in several different teams at Microsoft, and each one is different. What makes the most difference is your manager. Due to moves and transfers, I’ve already had about a dozen managers at Microsoft. Only 2 were completely unprepared for the position. That is more than 80% of really good managers in my career inside the company. There is something inside humans that make us remember pain too much, and focus too much on the present, or the recent past. Time flies, and whatever pain you have in your current position, I can guarantee you: there is some other team at Microsoft where a great manager is dreaming about getting someone with your skills. Yes, there are barriers to movement inside the company, and we cannot have people just moving around all the time and never doing any real work. Yet, there are many chances for movement inside the company and outside. The internal move process has been even simplified now. Have you ever really tried?
Finally, for all those like me that live in the bubble of the technical disciplines: there are amazing people outside Dev/Test/PM at Microsoft. You won’t find something similar elsewhere. Microsoft is a well-oiled machine, and the brand is still worth a lot. Surely, there are mistakes made in sales, marketing, HR, LCA, etc. Could you just consider those as bugs waiting to be fixed? Did you open them?
If we all keep focus, and keep executing, Microsoft can have a great quarter or two, and no more layoffs. We can then focus on things like using our stock votes to get some board members replaced. Would it be an option to anonymously nominate MINI for the board and see how many people vote for him?
Useful link for our Russian guys.
http://www.lenta.ru/conf/jobless/
Sorry for the ones who left especially because I understand that performance was NOT taken into consideration and this might have spared the ones who really need to go.
From another perspective, everyone must understand that Microsoft has too much people and people that is not working on the right things or even working at all.
We need to have people making products and selling product, the rest is business support which is directly related on how many products we create and sell.
I'm a stronger supporter that a move of resources from Redmond to the field neeeds to happen and no resources should be removed from the field as the organizations are already pretty slim.
The (many) people in my group that were laid off fell into these categories for the most part:
- Less technical people
- People who weren't the most productive
- People with well-known bad attitudes
I heard how many people were laid off before I heard who they were. With a few exceptions, I was able to guess who they were.
I know this isn't universal, especially in the case where whole teams were let go including the superstars.
I think Microsoft is going to be stronger as a result.
That "I'm sorry" lady at the meeting was pathetic (though I admire her bravery), and I think Ballmer's response was appropriate. He basically said he was sorry for the people, but he still felt the decision was the right business decision to make and that he wasn't sorry about the decision.
I also think the comments on Lisa's attire are absurd. She always dresses like that. Many of us do. This wasn't some funeral she was supposed to wear black for. Ya'll are a buncha Yahoos for focusing on her clothing. I think she did a decent job. This wasn't her decision, she just had to deal with it. Her comments about people thanking her were a little misplaced though.
All of that said, I think we could have skipped this layoff and MSFT would have been just fine. It's a moral dilemma we are going to need to face soon... is it now time to place employees' well being ahead of the shareholders'? I wouldn't be surprised if Obama didn't put something in place soon to enforce that. I'm not saying that's necessarily a good or bad thing. I just think there's a lot of labor-friendly people in charge of things these days and it wouldn't surprise me.
I also can't help but wonder how many people are starting to think more of unionizing now. It would be ironic if that happened.
" I have been here over 5 years and it is always SteveB's fault"
"I am great but the managers suck"
"I work here but we stink and Apple and Google are Great"
Posters and Posers, if things are that bad here, please, please, please, leave now. Go use your infinite wisdom to ruin these other companies that you think are so great. If you are so darn smart, so deep with your business acumen, then use it to line your own pockets with wealth and fortune.
What a bunch of whining babies. You flock to Mini saying yes we need a smaller Microsoft. The day comes (and the cuts should have been 4 times as deep) and all you can do is whine and complain.
This is reality. For those of you on the inside, we have been coddled and amazingly fortunate to get paid alot of money and benefits to work here. For those of you on the outside, why so bitter. You should be excited that the company you loathe is going through tough times. But when you wake up in the morning we will still be here moving on with Windows 7, Azure, Exchange, .NET, XBOX 360, and the most cloud computing capacity on the planet.
It took a global recession to slow down the amazing uninterupted growth of this company and if you were not wathcing while others are losing money we continue to weather this in a profitable fashion.
To those that were impacted, I empathize. I wish your families the best.
Everyone else, your are either part of the solution or part of the problem.
If you are so damn smart, go load Linux and Firefox on your AMD PC and make your fortune in the world. It is America, the market is full of experts like you that live in your basement and tell the rest of the world how stupid everyone else is.
I love this company.
Saw this on LinkedIn
A STRATEGY IF YOU WERE LAID OFF:
Email HR for a list of all positions in Microsoft that are filled with H1, in fact, all WORK VISAs (not citizens, not green card holders). They HAVE that information because they must record it for the Feds. If no list is produced, then contact a lawyer and have him draft a letter demanding it. A documented refusal to produce such a list will likely go over very badly with a judge.
Once you have the list, contact the manager for any position that you feel that you are capable of performing, and demand by written letter in additon to email(ideally with proof of delivery -remember, we are wanting clear evidence for a judge) that you be given a full interview (usual all day happening) to replace these guest workers -- because the basis of their VISA is **no longer valid**, there is a qualified american worker available, yourself!
If there is no success, send to both federal and state representatives copies of the letters and ask them to "force the issue".
The key is to generate a clear basis of legal action of wrongful dismissal. The key of which is the retaining of a guest worker doing a job that you can do.
NOT LEGAL ADVISE -- Just an idea of what may be interesting..
No layoffs for FTEs in india as per Venkatesan's email. Funny, my manager had a 1:1 with a day prior to the layoff news and this 1:1 sounded a bit different than the usual I would say.
Layoffs in India should start from the Support Center in Bangalore, a bloated organization with no focus on customer or Technology. The worse lot is the managers in GTSC, Ex-Wiproites....low level hardware engineers.....coming into the system with fake experience letters as team managers.
Coming to the engineers, off the 1800+ engineers, only a 100 or so are really passionate about what the do....rest are "I need to get our of GTSC somehow..." attitude...
God are these managers blind...can't they see...the engineers SUCK big time...stop behaving like an ostrich.....!!!!
Talk about SMSG....what a f***ed up place to be.... people selling HW boxes now trying to sell software/services.....but still a better place than GTSC...at least there is some passion around...!!!!
In relative numbers, this is a small layoff. Actually, stuff like this happens all the time at Microsoft. Poor performers are regularly managed out and people do have to scramble to find internal jobs when projects are realigned. But by going public with this layoff, SteveB has challenged the atrophied and self-serving middle layer at Microsoft. I applaud him for doing this. With one small public layoff and threat of more he has:
1. Put those resters and vesters on notice. Yes, maybe you have a patent or a gold star and you got 4.5 review, but really that was 10 years ago. What have you done lately? You were good once, now get cracking and keep proving it.
2. Make people think twice about joining teams that work on half-baked pet quests championed by social climbing partners. Redundant projects, those features with questionable customer value, or products that have no hope of ever showing a profit will be outed and cancelled. So, starting now, some teams will have a have a harder time attracting talent and their project will die a quick death and save the company from future embarrassment.
3. Warn weak partner level hires from acquisitions that they will not make it at Microsoft. Yeah, I'm talking to you Aquantive alum.
This was a great company. We’ve lost our way, but we will get back on track. I am looking forward to seeing Microsoft go back to work on products that make customers genuinely happy and add to this company's bottom line.
Get the t-shirt here!
http://www.zazzle.com/microsoft_laid_off_shirt-235651807730156965
"Steve has really failed in many ways. But I hesitate to take seriously someone who genuinely feels that the proper answer to Apple and Google is to not compete with them, shut down entire divisions, and just keep making new versions of Windows and Office."
You just don't get it, do you?
Does Coke or Pepsi try to compete with Starbucks? Does McDonald's try to go head-to-head with Ruth's Chris? Just because some Wall Street egghead throws you in the same "industry" as someone else doesn't mean you HAVE TO compete with them.
Windows and Office are two of the most coveted monopolies in the world. They are Microsoft's unassailable strengths, but only if they continue to get *better* instead of just *newer*.
With Search, MS is pitting their weaknesses against behemoth-like strength. It's one thing to lose money to make progress, but losing $3 billion in three years and *losing* market share is not progress.
Google WILL stumble at some point, and that may be an opportunity for MS to strike. But pouring more resources into a division that has demonstrated repeated failure, against an opponent at the height of its dominance, is irresponsible and insane.
>Do managers usually prepare such a report at the end of the fiscal year? I don't want to sound paranoid, but this is the first time I've heard about leave reporting at the team level. It could be just a routine report that managers usually don't mention to their teams, but I'm wondering if this there's an increased focus on benefit utilization analysis.
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Absolutely. Good managers track this stuff so they make sure employees aren't taking advantage of the system. I track it closely and almost always see a few people stretching vacation time a bit. It's only prudent.
So much of backstabbing :( I am sad to see where we have come. Why leave certain layoffs for future ? This is the worst company i have ever worked in, i could never get anything done, due to the arrogance of my manager. Its a tough life here, i think my personal life and health has been hugely affected in the past few years. I am still here, though i see ugly backstabbing already starting. When will we come down to earth. We have hired so much crap just because the hiring manager knew him. I think the hiring process is broken, a lot of bias is there, we dont see good candidates, we see many more things and most often if hiring manager knows the person he/she is in.
goodbye microsoft, i will be out soon, but your decline will hopefully never stop till you have the crap not being booted out.
> Dude, people picked Microsoft over other employers with certain expectations. Sure, there are employers that layoff with no severance, but such employers would not be able to attract the kind of talent that MS has been able to attract.
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really? you picked MS because you thought it would handle layoffs better than others?! brilliant.
> Given how well Microsoft is doing the severance is nothing to write home about. There are employers that offer better severances.
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Really? AYFKM? Frankly, I challenge ANYONE to name a better severance package out there. ANYONE.
>I would love to see a green technology company (solar power, alt fuels, etc.) staffed entirely by ex-MSFT folks, and watch that company become the next MSFT or Boeing for the region.
What do you say?
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Do that, and I may leave MS on my own to join you. That sounds like an amazing oppty.
>They left in the lady who demanded from Ballmer a I'm Sorry but dropped the guy looking for accountability in the bad hires and over-hiring.
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If they did cut him, then great -- they should have. He rambled and sounded like an idiot without a point to make. Honestly, I don't understand why you would hold the CEO responsible for "bad hiring decisions" that are made by hiring managers down in the trenches. Over time, these "bad decisions" are rectified by handing out bad performance reviews, resulting in RIFs -- exactly what happened on Thurs for some people that were let go.
Good Article:
Lawmaker asks Microsoft about keeping American workers
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/microsoft/2008665300_microsoft24.html
>Interesting letter from Senator to Mr. Baldloser head. http://grassley.senate.gov/news/Article.cfm?customel_dataPageID_1502=18922
Interesting indeed. But even more fascinating will be the answers and numbers that SteveB has to provide. The questions are right to the point, so they can not answer with typical kool-aid like they
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Wake up. This is just politics -- the questions are not unpopular, and so they are easy to pose from a political standpoint. This guy should STFU because he's not the one who is accountable to shareholders, who are obviously demanding cost efficacy (I'm included in that group). If the business decision to outsource helps with that goal, then it's Steve's decision to make -- within the bounds of the law, of course. If we're with the law, then no pompous, chest-pounding senator has any right to question those business decisions. Business is business.
>Does any body have a breakup of number of cuts per region?
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STOP ASKING FOR METRICS and SURVEYS. You're not going to get them, because your trolling agenda is transparent to anyone with more than one brain cell.
Some interesting people items coming up. First, yes manager feedback has been turned off for MYCD. This is a statement if you ask me. A statement that this company places NO VALUE on good people managers. While I knew this already, it is disheartening to see the feedback stop. If we ever needed to find and retain the managers who could constructively steer a team through a mess, now is the time for that. As a manager of managers, I still plan to do anonymous feedback through the consensus tool. I need to know who is blowing smoke and who is doing a good job.
Second, the MSPoll starts early Feb. This is a total wildcard from a response standpoint. If the feedback is terrible, my guess is they'll hold results until Q1. Some advice on filling it out though. If you're one of the lucky ones with a good manager, please please make sure you highlight that in the MSPoll. As a manager your poll results follow you and yes do end up in your annual review (unless they take that out this year too). Similarly if you have a terrible manager, have at it.
Third, many groups have moved up the deadline to finish MYCD. My division thankfully did not have layoffs in the first round, but our MYCD deadline was just moved up. My guess is we'll have layoffs in June and it will be based on performance issues first called out at MYCD.
Fourth, as many have pointed out, yes the stack ranking and review model is a total joke at MSFT. You wouldn't believe the GM and VP comments I've heard in the ranking meetings. Have these meetings are just for show - so we can say we met, but doesn't really change anything. Comments like, "her husband makes good money so why should we waste extra raise on her. Who cares if her compa is below her peers" and " i don't want to waste a promo on someone going on maternity leave. what if she doesn't come back." or my favorite and most often heard "I just don't like him/her. I don't like them no matter what so i'm not stacking them high regardless". While some of this goes on at any company it is rampant and pervasive at MSFT. It is sickening. Prepping for a rank meeting is like training for a marathon. I have so so so much detail I have to amass to make sure my team doesn't get killed in this bloodsport. And this year will be worse.
To the poster who mentioned that ratings were locked long before anyone wrote their review this is absolutely true. THe annual review will be 80% locked at MYCD. The final is locked in June so the Q1 financial forecast can be done. Note this is a good 2 months before you'll finish your write-ups. So make sure you have good 1:1 notes with your manager so they can go to bat for you - assuming of course you have a manager with the balls to do so.
To the folks calling for full cuts to products like Dynamics: You don't know what you don't know. Being a public forum, I can't share numbers, but trust me when I say it's a profitable business with double-digit YOY growth. You contain costs, but don't cut businesses like this one. You'd be advised to take the time to *understand* the businesses that they company is in before adding more FUD in a public forum about our publicity traded company whose stock price very clearly reflects some of the commentary in this blog.
Anyone who thinks these layoffs didn't touch management, think again.
General Manager Chris Early is gone.
http://venturebeat.com/2009/01/24/microsofts-chris-early-head-of-games-for-windows-live-among-the-layoffs/
Microsoft responded to Senator Grassley:
http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/techtracks/2009/01/23/senator_wants_microsoft_to_preserve_american_jobs.html
You will notice MS did not provide in their answers clear numbers to Sen. Grassley's direct questions. It seems very obvious there are more americans affected from this layoff than there are H1B's. They are afraid of the bad PR this would cause. Will MS execs be so cynical as to ask the government for more H1B visas in the future?
>If we unionized, we might at least end up waking steveB up! If the company collapses...oh well.
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No self-respecting Microsoft employee would EVER use the word "unionize", making this another trolling attempt. Unions like the lottery are for the poor and uneducated that can't fend for themselves. After all these years trying to get us to unionize, you'd think you got the point. We understand your gig here, so get lost.
"Ready..... total insurance consumption and burden."
It seems the Exceeded/20's dev, pm and test would be mostly fruitless to lay off with this criteria. They are going to be the highly sought candidates to fill open positions on other teams.
>> Really? AYFKM? Frankly, I challenge ANYONE to name a better severance package out there. ANYONE.
You asked.
From Tredegar Industries, a decade ago, for an employee with less than 2 years of service:
30% of annual salary
You will be surprised to read who is actively hiring in the Seattle area: http://microsoftjobsblog.com/default.aspx
SHAME ON THOSE AT JOBSBLOG FOR NOT HAVING A BIT OF TACT LAST THURSDAY !
>I hope the insurance/utilisation FUD is not true. Else there might be several people who might stop seeing their doctors due to this.
Once again the MS leadership has really screwed this up. Neither are the shareholders happy, nor the people who are let go or the employees.
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It's not.
I have to agree with many posters here that the company is not what it used to be many years back.
There were missteps, new and strong competitors along the way. Some of them have beaten us in many areas while we have not much to show our customers in addition to costly missteps.
One area I haven't seen mentioned much, other than the Indian thing, is that the company have not been able to recruit more quality people past years. We expanded so much, adding tens of thousands of employees at the same time the top new talents, from US universities, have elected to go somewhere else. I have seen many newcomers, with or without experience, who would not pass the tests (PM/Dev/Test and so on) 5-10 years ago. I am not saying all the new employees are not good, all I am saying is that the bar has been lowered as we could not fill positions fast enough. Managers would take them in because they fear that they would lose the headcount if not filled in timely. I have to teach many of them in addition to my daily work and it's very discouraging.
I also agree with many posters here that we have a bloated middle level management. We could easily trim some of them inclusing VP/Director level. I am an IC, I know I would not be very good at managing people, but now I have to rethink about my survival if I have to stay with the company. When I started working I was so naive I did no even know about my level, which I discovered almost a year later it was too low. I liked what I was doing, and I agreed with the compensation, so I took the job. No one told me about "level" thing.
I used to work crazy, at times 70-80 hours (no kidding) a week. Now, with my growing family I could not keep doing that anymore. I am concerned that I may be the easier target for the next round. I do my work, but I am no good at kissing management a**.
>> I bet this data would be really enlightening, especially for talent brought from abroad.
Why?
>My understanding of middle management is the following people:
PUM
GPM
Dev Mgr
Test Mgr
Group Mgr
etc
So, basically, people in the 64-66 range, level-wise.
The majority of these people absolutely contribute nothing at Microsoft. They're obstructionists more so that being supposed "visionaries".
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Who do you think steers the ship on these products? Without them, you have a bunch of junior leads reporting to GM's and VPs -- yeah, I can see how that would work. My guess is that people that don't see the value in these roles either work for bad examples of them, or they don't understand what "management" is. Billion dollar businesses cannot be run by a bunch of kids, a la Lord of the Flies. Think about that.
We wouldn't need so much of the "useless middle management and bureaucrats" that everyone complains about, if this company would make up its mind about what to do, and do it well.
We need to give each product team dedicated resources to do every project. If a project is important enough to be funded by Microsoft, it should be fully funded and fully staffed, even if some of that team's roles and labs duplicate other teams.
Instead, we make every project fight to share the same labs, developers, testers, legal contacts, product planners, etc.
Try working with the offshore test vendors sometime! Getting on their calendar and working with the time difference is slightly less complicated than planning that minor Normandy thing on D-Day.
Most of the PMs I know are engaged in petty bureaucratic stuff, but not because they're incompetent or trying to play power games (ok, with a couple exceptions).
It's because they have to be off arguing with other teams trying to fight for time from the "shared resources" that are trying to do 6 projects and 3 versions at once.
Any gain you think you get from having centralized labs and centralized consulting is instantly lost by having an army of PMs fight to justify their team's existence every other day.
> Saw this on LinkedIn
A STRATEGY IF YOU WERE LAID OFF:
Email HR for a list of all positions in Microsoft that are filled with H1, in fact, all WORK VISAs (not citizens, not green card holders). They HAVE that information because they must record it for the Feds. If no list is produced, then contact a lawyer
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Why? what are you hoping to gain?
Google WILL stumble at some point, and that may be an opportunity for MS to strike. But pouring more resources into a division that has demonstrated repeated failure, against an opponent at the height of its dominance, is irresponsible and insane.
MSFT would be better off to throw in the towel and let Google be seen for the monopoly that they are. That will attract the attention of the EU and DOJ. Right now, government intervenion is the only thing I see that will weaken Google.
So who's going to put together that green tech company? And is there anyone with experience in getting VC money to do it? I can't help fund anything, not with MSFT under $20 a share...
You wouldn't believe the GM and VP comments I've heard in the ranking meetings. Have these meetings are just for show - so we can say we met, but doesn't really change anything. Comments like, "her husband makes good money so why should we waste extra raise on her. Who cares if her compa is below her peers" and " i don't want to waste a promo on someone going on maternity leave. what if she doesn't come back."
I actually don't believe this, it's hugely illegal and represents massive exposure for the company, and in any room of 8 people someone would report these comments. I've seen senior managers dragged through HR sensitivity training for far less virulent statements.
If you're going to pull random shit out of your ass because you want to pile on the train, at least have it make sense.
Regarding the pointlessness of reviews, I always write reviews for my next hiring manager. They are the only ones who might care about what was written.
More importantly, you need to know who participates in the stack ranking meetings on your behalf and make sure they have your back. Not only that, the others in that stack rank meeting need to also have some feel for your net worth. If the visibility of your accomplishments is low, or much of your time is spent on "unofficial" work, you had better speak up and network more so that when you sit on the border between 70% and 20%, one or more people argue for you.
>>I am a high performers in my years at microsoft and here is what I have done yesterday. I have been in touch with my Google recruiter that has been offering my position a while back.<<
This is the attrition we don't want. This type of attrition may far exceed the other 3600 heads slated to be cut and I don't blame the folks leaving.
With Microsoft now publicly acknowledging large lay offs that in the past would just happen, we have lost an edge with college hires that might have picked msft stability over another company.
Steve B used to be yelling "developer, developer...the most important...love the company" in company meeting. Yes, I was touched. I thought he was a good CEO even if he doesn't have the knowledge for software as billG. I thought he know the value of engineers... MSFT is not facing some wall street style companies; MSFT is facing Apple/Google, who has CEO at the same level as billG. If billG/Jobs are graduate student level, Steve B is high student. How could you expect a high school kid competing with graduate students??
There are plenty of questions on whether SteveB understands how to make the company successful, as BillG did in the past.
To all billg fans, wasnt he the one who missed the whole internet train because he knew he msft coudld not fully control it. How abut rejecting overture deal. And how about LinkExchange? So many years headstart in mobile OS and we produce crap called windows mobile.
Zune is just a big brick. God didnt the Bill puke when they looked at it besides iPod. XBox has not captured as much attention as Wii. No I dont want to hear the Serious gammer crap. Thats like saying Unix is great because most serious programmers use unix/linux flavor. Msft was always about mass market.
MSN bleeds. Did steveB bid for yahoo without Bill's ok? I dont think so.
BillG did an amazing job with PC and controlling it but when it came to other businesses, he and msft just blew it. I dont think i would like to see him at the top again running msft.
Best thing might actually be splitting msft.
"The economy sucks people. Shit like this is gonna happen. All the gloaters at APPL and GOOG: your time is coming. Laugh while you can. People will soon be unable to prop up the "upgrade very year" APPL business model for that latest white cube. Advertising budgets will be the first to get the axe, GOOG folks, and we all know that is the only product you have that makes money. All your other free properties will need to either make money or be cut. If you think otherwise you are a fool."
Sure wish I had your crystal ball. But I guess if it worked, you wouldn't be on here spewing a bunch of nonsense, because you'd be rich.
Keep parroting that "it's the economy" nonsense from SteveB.
Zune revenues fell by 54% last quarter. Must be because of the economy. Except that Apple set a new record for iPod sales in the same quarter.
Online Services lost $471 million in the quarter. It's because the economy sucks. Except that they lost $1.3 billion in a year when the economy wasn't bad. And Live Search's ad spend market share fell to 4.2% from 5% a year earlier. Meanwhile, Google still sits at 76% market share and made $382 million...partly because they've been making layoffs since August, in areas that actually make sense (e.g., recruiting).
The economy is hitting everyone. Everyone is making cuts. Some are just doing them more intelligently than others.
>But by going public with this layoff, SteveB has challenged the atrophied and self-serving middle layer at Microsoft.<
Really? These same people already knew these layoffs occurred periodically.
I challenge ANYONE to name a better severance package out there.
That's easy. Take Yahoo for instance. When they laid off recently, workers were "considered to be on the payroll" for an additional two months after layoff, regardless of tenure, and during this time they got full benefits and get this, their stock continued to vest! At the end of two months if the employees hadn't found new jobs they got upwards of 2 months of pay (depending on tenure).
A lot of laid off MS emps got a lot worse than this! This despite the fact that Yahoo is not doing as well as MS. And there are plenty of other examples besides Yahoo.
Check this guy's analysis. Key quotes are:
"How fast Microsoft can die? " and "I don't think Microsoft can reinvent itself."
Here is the link to comparing MS, Apple and Google earnings:
http://seekingalpha.com/article/116353-apple-google-microsoft-a-tale-of-three-earnings-reports?source=yahoo
Monday, December 8, 2008
Microsoft: Crumbling Empire?
Interesting news: the share of computers with Microsoft Windows OS surfing the web dropped below 90% (article here).
Of course, Microsoft (MSFT) is still an enormous cash machine. It still has a near monopoly on corporate desktop and laptop market. Many investors might assume that company still can produce great returns. But I think Empire is cracking.
Let's take a look at the last quarterly report (quarter ended September 30), available here.
Operating income by divisions.
Client division, i.e. Windows for desktop/laptop: 3267 million, slightly less than a year ago.
Server and Tools division, i.e. Windows Server, SQL Server, Exchange and other things: 1151 million, or 20% more than a year ago.
Business division (Office): 3311 million, 20% increase.
Entertainment and devices (Xbox and Windows Mobile): 178 million, slight increase.
Online services: loss of 480 million, compared to 267 million a year ago.
This is operating income. If you look at it from corporate point of view, Entertainment and devices is in red, and online division is a huge sinkhole.
Balance sheet looks healthy. Lots of cash. Small problem is that all that cash and then some is already allocated for a huge buyback. Microsoft, first time in it's corporate life, is issuing debt. It has enough free cash flow to service it, so debt shouldn't be a problem.
It looks like a picture of a very healthy company, maybe with some small problems. What can possibly go wrong? The answer is simple: real competition. Let's see by divisions.
Client division: strong competition from Apple (AAPL) on the upper end. And competition from Linux in subnotebooks (AKA netbooks) segment. The last one is so bad for Microsoft, that it had to do unthinkable: issue licenses for product they wanted to retire, Windows XP, specifically for subnotebooks. Competition is mostly localized to the home computer segment so far. Microsoft still dominates client OS market for the businesses for now. There are couple of small problems here though: businesses mostly refuse to upgrade to Vista (no additional revenue), and Apple starts penetrating into enterprise.
Server.
Windows Server: Strong competition from Linux. UNIX is still in business too.
SQL Server: Very strong competition from all sides: Oracle, IBM DB2, open source (MySQL, PostgreSQL, Ingress).
Exchange: No serious competition so far.
Business division: no serious competition to Office. Companies have an option of switching to open source (Openoffice), but reluctant to do so.
Entertainment and devices: very stiff competition. For Xbox it's Sony PlayStation and Nintendo Wii, for Windows Mobile it's Apple iPhone, running OS X, Google Android and Linux.
Last but not least: Web services. It's not that Microsoft has competition here. It's that Microsoft is not a competition for others. Companies with which MSFT wants to compete are profitable: Yahoo! (YHOO) and Google (GOOG). Attempt to throw huge money on this problem doesn't help.
How fast Microsoft can die? That's a big, $180 billion question. Thing is, tech companies sometimes can die fast, like CDC or Wang Computers. They can linger for many years (as Jim Cramer says, dead companies walking), like Unisys (UIS). Or they can reinvent themselves, like IBM, which is more like an integrator than a tech company.
I don't think Microsoft can reinvent itself. It never could compete on even field. All its victories in competition were achieved by "leveraging" its OS monopoly. Now, when this monopoly itself is under question, what can Microsoft do? It's still possible that company can survive for many more years, just on the sheer inertia of huge installed base. The best decision would be to split into two or three companies. Just close the Web shop (no one in his sound mind would ever buy it), sell entertainment and mobile, if there is a buyer. Core businesses need to be changed too. OS development has to be completely changed. Every successful OS right now is UNIX or Linux based. The only way to make a good OS is to take BSD UNIX and add some proprietary GUI, like Apple did. You can even call it Windows Berkeley. Office can do just fine. Mobile shop has to be closed too, it can't compete on its own with Apple and Google. I see separate OS company, Office company and Enterprise Server company (Exchange and SQL Server). Resulting companies can be much smaller, drastically cutting costs.
Can company do that? I don't think so. But I'm watching Microsoft now. If there is any hint of a split, I am a buyer.
http://muddlinginvestor.blogspot.com/2008/12/microsoft-crumbling-empire.html
>> You can spend years at Microsoft feeling
>> powerless saying 'If only they did this,
>> things would be so much better.' or you can
>> start your own company.
There are some folks in MSR who you DON'T want to see running their own company, because they can completely devastate Microsoft if their ideas result in something more than a mountain of patent cubes. Just because Microsoft fails to use their talents doesn't mean some Silicon Valley VC will.
> If they did cut him, then great -- they should have. He rambled and sounded like an idiot without a point to make. Honestly, I don't understand why you would hold the CEO responsible for "bad hiring decisions" that are made by hiring managers down in the trenches. Over time, these "bad decisions" are rectified by handing out bad performance reviews, resulting in RIFs -- exactly what happened on Thurs for some people that were let go.
--
You do sound like an idiot. How many products cycles have you really experienced at Microsoft? It was Steve and some other executives who decided to invest a lot of money on problematic areas. In a lot of low quality Microsoft teams, the so-called high end 70% are not even as productive as 10% of some other teams. Your naive thought of cutting through RIF doesn't match the reality at all.
That Asian guy also mentioned holding those hiring managers accountable. Do you understand the basic of As hiring As, Bs hiring Cs? Have you ever seen Bs or even Cs dev mangers or GM were RIFed? Even after they had made pathetic decisions on projects that wasted the efforts of the most talented ICs.
You need to learn some of business 101 quickly before you get RIFed. It looks like most folks here understand how teams are running much clearer than you.
You just don't get it, do you?
Actually, I do and you really don't. I feel bad that you don't but you have no strategic perspective on the industry.
You're comparing MSFT and Google to Coke and Pepsi and Starbuks.
Good grief.
Well I'll use your broken analogy to prove you wrong (its so easy)
Did Coke buy Vitamin Water? I rest my case.
Please spend less time opining and more time really thinking about the industry before you decide to make a stand on the idea that the KEY to Microsofts future success is to keep shipping Windows and Office DVDs.
My god am I really even having to HAVE this conversation with people who, according to their own boasts here, feel THEY are the "smart ones" amid all of the "dead weight" at Microsoft?
The technology world is laughing at you folks...
That was Microsoft's proverbial iceberg. Titanic stayed afloat for another two hours and forty-five minutes. I give Microsoft 2 3/4 years.
But this ship can't sink!
She is made of people, sir. I assure you, she can. And she will. It is a mathematical certainty. ...
With Microsoft now publicly acknowledging large lay offs that in the past would just happen, we have lost an edge with college hires that might have picked msft stability over another company.
This was not much of an edge. Ultimately money talks when hiring and we have been matching or beating offers made by other companies for some time now. Given how much of the college pipeline is foreign origin this also addresses the "cheap labor" argument raised by the Lou Dobbs types.
"Windows and Office are two of the most coveted monopolies in the world. They are Microsoft's unassailable strengths, but only if they continue to get *better* instead of just *newer*."
And there you have the key. Former MS'er here who has since worked in the infrastructure groups at two public companies and the notion of breaking free from the MS monopoly is an idea I have seen getting more serious discussion at upper levels of management. Vista was kind of an insult to customers.
"That's easy. Take Yahoo for instance. When they laid off recently, workers were "considered to be on the payroll" for an additional two months after layoff, regardless of tenure, and during this time they got full benefits and get this, their stock continued to vest!"
I reviewed some of the paperwork and it went like this. 60 days of pay and considered to be on the payroll including benefits; actual date of termination is March 23rd. Considered an employee on the payroll until that date (but with no corpnet ect access). Plus, there's actual severance pay on top of it, vacation pay payout, and money towards continuation of benefits after the loss of employment.
I don't know if that's the same deal everyone else got, but it sure seemed reasonable to me.
On the topic of foreign workes, I can tell you as a hiring manager -
Every position I've ever opened had an insignificant number of US applicants vs Foreign Educated applicant. You usually can't tell their status, except for what's written on the resume, until after you decided to hire them. Education is a good tip off.
As I go through Resume's, those with Universities I've heard of get a lot more preference then those that I haven't. Why? Well my experience has been that I tend to get better quality canidates showing up for interviews. Same is true for work experience.
Since becoming a hiring manager, over the years I have hired 3 US citizens, 2 Ethiopians, 5 Indians, 2 Chinese, 2 Brazilians, and 1 Canadian. Pretty much all of the foreigners that I have hired have aspired to get a green card and eventual US citizenship (the Canadian was the exception).
Salaries of all of the above were done strictly on level without regard to budget. The only budget an HM has is the position level. As a result you try to fill it with the most qualified canidate you can find. Salary happens afterwards with HR.
I've yet to see any salary discrimination in all my years at MS, though I have heard it happening in other teams. Usually this is as a result of HR flagging someone as underpaid for a level. This almost always happens when an overqualified canidate is underleveled during the hiring process. The result is rapid promotions, which results in lower comparable salaries at the same level because when you level you don't get a full salary increase at promotion. If this happens multiple times, then suddenly the person is paid significantly less then peers at the same level.
Since I have a position open now, I have some insight into this layoff in the form of a spike of internal people applying for my position. 1 out of the 7 applicants appeared to be a US Citizen (based on education/name). Of course this is for R&D, so sales might be completely different.
I have no doubt why I have hired so few US citizens. Its not because I want cheap labor or I want to discriminate. Its purely and simply because their aren't US citizens applying for the job.
IF someone was going to come up with a conspiracy, then this is where to look. Does HR filter US applicants? For some reason I don't think so, given HR can barely work through the process of hiring someone.
As for myself, I'm a perfect example of what a US citizen is.... I was NOT born in the US, though both my parents were. I was born in a foreign country because (gasp) my parents were foreign workers! I myself have had the opportunity to work in a foreign country, and its not so easy. As such I do sympothize with those that do.
On my father's side, we can trace our origins in the US to the Mayflower. On my mothers side, we can trace our origins to the Scandanavian's that logged the NW (including chopping down all the tree's on the Eastside). There is also a family rumor that one of my grandmothers on that side was native american.
As such I can feel safe claiming as an US citizen with a LONG history in this country, that I welcome not only the tired, the poor, the huddled masses yearning to breath free, but also the smart, the talented, and the educated willing to work with me to succeed.
These foreign workers "stealing jobs" are not what you should be worried about as most want a life here in the US. You should be worried more about the outsourcing of America and the clueless managers that believe that the short term cost cuts won't affect the long term results. Anyone use help desk recently?
BTW - As for the layoff itself, I really wish that whole divisions (non-profitable ones) were cut. Instead its politics as usual. As such, pet projects were spared and the pain was spread haphazardly to profitable and unprofitable teams alike.
If you are one of the unfortunate that were affected, please be patient with the internal job search. HM's will be very slow in talking with you because a) HR has told HM's that all communication has to go through HR, b) we are swamped with resume's, and c) we were told no informationals.
Good luck out there!
Though this info should go out to those impacted (CNN.com):
http://money.cnn.com/2005/10/18/news/economy/annie/fortune_annie101805/index.htm
For one thing, you're legally entitled to take 21 days to think over a severance offer before you sign a severance agreement -- and even after you sign, the law gives you seven days to change your mind. So don't be rushed into anything. There are usually several components to a severance package besides cash, and some of them may be more negotiable than you think. For a few ideas you may find helpful, take a look at a column that appeared in this space in May, "How to Get a Better Severance Package"
Rest you case if you like, but it's still full of holes. Coke bought Vitamin Water, and Odwalla, and a whole mess of other soft drink companies. Because Coke was the giant, and the others were upstarts, and Coke did what it felt was wise to preserve their moat. Their moat is deeper and wider today because of it. If all of a sudden people stopped buying carbonated drinks and instead went to flavored water or smoothies, they would be there. They didn't wait for them to get huge, then lose billions trying unsuccessfully to catch up.
This isn't about opining, it's about looking at facts. The numbers are there. All you have are vague notions about where you think the industry is headed. Nobody cares about your "projections" about the "future of tech." You're telling me that a company with two monopolies that can't project its earnings for the next two quarters is somehow Nostradamus when it comes to where "the industry is headed"?
Microsoft has NO needed presence in Search. None. Live Search could die tomorrow and the industry would barely notice. MS *paid* customers to use it last year, and they *still* lost market share. There's a difference between market positioning and throwing money into a pit.
Google and Apple did fine last quarter, and they've been doing fine for the last year and a half. Tell me: Does Google's core business compete with Apple's? No. Yet MS decides they "need" to compete with both - the giants of their respective niches - with products that, as another poster mentioned, would have zero chance of surviving on an even playing field.
I hope the TCN partners+ and spouses still get to go to their free boon-doggle trip to Victoria this year. They'll need the comforting after these tough times and the stock being where it is.
Thank goodness we still kept David Vaskivitch and his team around - what would we all do without them?
How does one learn to kiss ass? I don't really have it in me but it seems so effortless to others. Do they realize they are doing it or is it just a personality trait?
Losing the cynicism implied here, let's look at this from a slightly different angle. One thing that could be construed as "ass kissing" is the act of expending effort to make your manager successful. The implication here is that those that the manager perceives as contributing the most to their own success will be considered by that manager as the most "valuable" members on their teams.
Is there really anything wrong or politcal with this paradigm? Sure, it involes a belief that your manager knows more than you what overall success of your team means, and that his manager more than he on the broader scale, and so on. So it involves some frequent trips to the koolaid bar to trust that those running your products and divisions have the right direction in mind, that if executed upon, mean success.
And if you don't believe in that direction? Get the hell out! Is it not hyprocritical to work hard towards goals that you do not yourself believe in? Aside from slavery and indentured servitude, you have a choice.
That speech aside, there's a simple formula that you could call "ass kissing" if it justifies better for you this way:
- Find out what your manager's commitments are
- Ask you manager how your effort can best be applied to help him meet or beat those commitments
- Kick ass and do them
- Where necessary, gently remind the manager how you contributed to their commitments
Believe me, if everyone had this approach, the bar for measuring value would be simpler and there's be a lot less talk about being politically bucketed in 10%.
And if you don't believe in the vision that you're driving success of, then either make an effort to change it or find one that matches your own better to work for. Better to spend effort there than bitching about what's not working.
More so, if everyone followed this philosophy, those VIPs with the weak visions would find themselves soon enough understaffed in both quantity and quality, and quickly unsuccessful. Those with a vision that resonates downwards will be successful via quality teams that execute to their own beliefs. Everything would take care of itself if from the ICs up we all followed the formula.
I would suggest everyone give their finances a good overview - maximum unemployment benefits in WA are $541 per week, with what appears to be a normal run of 26 weeks bringing a total of $14,066 into a laid-off person's bank accounts (although that is pre-tax), it's a lot less than the MSFT pay is/was.
We have enough cash to cover our basic living expenses (mortgage, car payment utilities, food) for 4 months, and unemployment will stretch that out a bit more. We live modestly, have tried to sock money away into 401K and ESPP. If new job isn't found, we will take a hard look at selling the house, and possibly gutting the 401K, with the associated 10% federal tax penalty, along with regular federal income tax on a beaten-down balance.
We could surely have saved more in cash reserves, but didn't know that salary would be stopping now. We have lived beneath our means for years, so a lower new salary won't kill us (except for pride). The house payment is high because we were trying to pay it off faster - that's on a 1200 ancient rambler, not luxurious in any way, no big remodel or McMansion. $42,000 of student loans remain on grad school, but only one year of car payments, no credit card debt. Paying for basic needs is the new focus.
Savings really only last so long, and hindsight says more should have been set aside. You can be responsible and conservative, and still not be prepared to lose your income. Hoping for the best given skillset and education, but the shock is bad, and the responsiblities remain even when the cashflow stops. It's easy to be critical of other people's situations, but take a look at your own money and see if you are set up to lose your job - it will make you more prepared for anyting unexpected or being part of the next 3600.
Perhaps if our genius finance people hadn't given us 40% growth targets for the EMEA online ad business, we might not be missing our forecast so badly. The market sizing projections somehow didn't factor in the downturn, even though we were clearly in it by then. I recall we were having to send articles from the FT & Economist, to convince them that yes Europe was also going into recession, oh and that was all of Europe not just the UK....Of course it's hard for them to think of the world outside of the US, or ROW as we are known... they should definitely be for the chopping block....
To the folks calling for full cuts to products like Dynamics: You don't know what you don't know. Being a public forum, I can't share numbers, but trust me when I say it's a profitable business with double-digit YOY growth. You contain costs, but don't cut businesses like this one. You'd be advised to take the time to *understand* the businesses that they company is in before adding more FUD in a public forum about our publicity traded company whose stock price very clearly reflects some of the commentary in this blog.
Seems like you don't quite *understand*. Here is a verbatim excerpt from last week's 10-Q earnings release form:
Business revenue increased $285 million or 7%, primarily reflecting growth in volume licensing agreement revenue and included a 7% decrease in Microsoft Dynamics customer billings.
Not quite growing double digits. It's a drag on MBD and the company and it's time to divest
>> There are too many managers and too few ICs. Managers must make the recommendation for the cuts but what we have now is a stalemate situation.<<
Have you actually been a people manager here? I can tell you that managers are both ICs and Managers, well most that I know in anycase. You have to do the full work of an IC and people mgt in your 'spare' time.
As a Manager, I would like to know what is being done to prevent the best people from leaving and from poor morale impacting productivity. When I got the mail from Lisa on Thursday, saying that as people managers we had to show leadership & keep people focussed, my first reaction was, 'oh does that mean i've not been chopped yet'. Tricky to reassure your team, when you know nothing yourself... rock on MS Poll...
>From Tredegar Industries, a decade ago, for an employee with less than 2 years of service: 30% of annual salary
---
Idiot. I'm talking about THIS downturn. Today. The environment we're in right now. A decade ago most of these people were still in college.
The OP said the severance package being given out sucked and implied people were being given next to nothing.
I have news for you -- if you've been at the company for over 10 years, all told, you may be looking at a YEAR's salary, including benefits for a year. Doesn't sound too bad to me.
"Who do you think steers the ship on these products? Without them, you have a bunch of junior leads reporting to GM's and VPs -- yeah, I can see how that would work. My guess is that people that don't see the value in these roles either work for bad examples of them, or they don't understand what "management" is. Billion dollar businesses cannot be run by a bunch of kids, a la Lord of the Flies. Think about that."
-----
Oh I see! Without management we'd have employees undermining and backstabbing each other? Oh but wait... we already have that! Are you telling us that it would be even worse without the middle layer of fat? Like what? Gangs of Devs fighting gangs of PMs in the parking lots? Cannibalism maybe?
Or ...
Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling! Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes...
The dead rising from the grave! Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!
The crap people say to justify their useless jobs...
Endlessly returning here to beat a drum just smacks of bitterness or desperation.
I left Microsoft 3 years ago but still have friends who work there, and Microsoft is a significant part of the tech industry and the Seattle area. Reading this blog is a great way to keep my finger on the pulse of the company. And if I choose to occasionally throw in my $0.02 about how I feel the company is being mismanaged, shoot me...
Apple and Google are THE model for success in the future of computing. Anyone who thinks the KEY to success is to not try to compete with them and just stay quiet and "do what we do" is out of their mind and really amazingly detached from where the industry is going.
Interesting that you pick Apple and Nintendo in particular--these companies hardly have an innovative or futuristic business strategy. The opposite, actually. Apple makes most of its money selling Macs, which has been the case for the past 25 years. And Nintendo sells game consoles, which they've also been doing for ~25 years. Google still has the same moneymaking strategy they've always had, almost since they were founded.
One thing these companies have in common is that they've been innovating WITHIN their niches... your examples prove the opposite of what you intended... if Microsoft wants to be successful and win hearts and minds, they have to go back to focusing on Windows and Office and dev tools and really polish and innovate on those, not get complacent and distracted by the "cloud" or faux-competitors.
The 60 days on payroll as an employee is required by the WARN act. Some people got the option of internal job search where they retain corpnet access and cardkey and such but are moved to building 25 until they decide to stop or March 23. Some people were required to surrender cardkey and have no access as of Friday.
Both put the person laid off on "administrative leave" status per the HR manager that spoke to me.
Under level 64 got 1 week pay per 6 months of employment. Level 64 and over got 2 weeks pay per 6 months of employment. Both of these capped at 39 weeks.
They must pay you your accrued vacation because it's considered to be earned. They do not have to pay you for sick time or floating holidays.
I worked for MS from the late 90's to late 2005; I was close to many GM's and other management in the West Coast. In the early 2000's I noticed a decay and downward spiral of the "love of technology" and the beginning of the new regiment. I saw many "old school" Msofties leave saying it's no longer fun. As a "orange badge" I was happy to be there, contributing to a company that changed the world. Now its nothing but a giant political, backstabbing arena. Saying you work for MS now means nothing. I am sorry for all those that have been given the axe. Although it seems that times are dark, and it may well become darker; Better times will come.
In response to anon @ 7:22am
Once you have the list, contact the manager for any position that you feel that you are capable of performing, and demand by written letter in additon to email(ideally with proof of delivery -remember, we are wanting clear evidence for a judge) that you be given a full interview (usual all day happening) to replace these guest workers -- because the basis of their VISA is **no longer valid**, there is a qualified american worker available, yourself!
Not a laywer here, but:
1. Labor certification is done prior to the employer applying for non-immigrant work status.
2. Unless the employee holding work status breaks the law or is laid off, they are in status until their expiry date (which is 2 to 5 years depending on their visa category) is reached.
Prior to the expiry date, the employer can file for an extension of the status meaning that a new labor certification is required.
It will be interesting to see how many new H-1's are filed and/or renewed in 2009.
Other comments
I would be more concerned about the lack of results from outsourcing/offshoring rather than dealing with temporary workers.
MSIT, BGCOE and IDC is a good example.
will TREAT 09 be held in secret, exposed by mini, and then get a InsideMS blog about "we meant to tell you all along"?
i suppose travel budgets don't get reduced for partners
Regarding some of the comments regarding H-1 workers: there is no requirement in law that an employer petitioning to hire an H-1 specialty worker demonstrate that they searched for / could not find a qualified US worker available to fill the position. The only requirement is that the foreign worker is paid at least the prevailing wage as defined by the Department of Labor.
There are some folks in MSR who you DON'T want to see running their own company, because they can completely devastate Microsoft if their ideas result in something more than a mountain of patent cubes. Just because Microsoft fails to use their talents doesn't mean some Silicon Valley VC will.
If it is something that Microsoft could use, it should get developed into a product one way or another.
Microsoft has the cash to buy their company if they are a threat.
The only way to find out if a VC will fund your company is to try.
We have several VC firms in the Pacific Northwest.
PACIFIC NW VENTURE CAPITAL AND PRIVATE EQUITY FIRMS
Pacific Northwest venture capital funds and venture-backed companies
Very few if any comments on the human toll this will take. People have children and mortgages to take care of. Some cruel comments from people who think it's only 10%'ers. Clearly, this is another example of Microsofters thinking that they are geniuses rather than lucky.
No one is immune in these times. REMEMBER IT!
I can tell you that managers are both ICs and Managers, well most that I know in anycase
This has stopped long back. I work in a team where there are six leads and none of them do any IC work. Even test leads have stopped testing the product. All they do is sit in mettings warming the chairs
Who do you think steers the ship on these products? Without them, you have a bunch of junior leads reporting to GM's and VPs...
Well, if the GMs, GPMs and PUMs would, y'know, actually do some steering, you might have a point. But most of them don't. They delegate everything, avoid making decisions, refuse to give their teams concrete guidance (and claim it's a virtue that they don't "micromanage"), and spend their time making powerpoints for their bosses.
The result is a bunch of junior leads being forced to make all the deicisons anyway, only without the relevant information they might get if they did report directly to a VP.
Microsoft's problem is one of execution. The company executes poorly. Driving execution is the reason middle management exists.
Middle Management is actually a really, really important position. The people in those roles determine how well a company of MSFTs size works. The problem at MSFT isn't that they have too many middle managers, it's that they have too many incompetent ones.
And it's that way because Ballmer and the other execs have wrong ideas about what management is all about. They don't know what a good manager looks like, so they pick bad ones.
I've been there. I was 10+ years at MSFT, worked my way onto the first rung of middle management, and eventually left because I was appalled at what I saw around me. Half my peers had no idea what they were doing, and it got worse as you went up the ranks.
Things won't have a chance to turn around until Ballmer is replaced. And his replacement will need to fire most of the VPs, and the new VPs will need to fire half the GMs, and the new GMs will need to re-evaluate the discipline managers reporting to them.
I'm still here, but I'm pretty sure I'm on borrowed time. I'm in that category of solid workers who have been out of school too long. Microsoft has always preferred HIPO (high potential) over HIPERF (high performance).
This thing will get much worse before it gets better. I expect we'll shrink down to 45,000 - 60,000 over the course of 2-3 years. I'd like to be more optimistic, but I can't: the cash cows are running dry and the growth investments haven't caught fire.
So I do what others have said:
* tighten personal expenses
* freshen skills
* update resume
And although it sounds trite, I'm thinking about what's really important in my life. This thing is an opportunity to course correct whether you are forced to or not.
Really? AYFKM? Frankly, I challenge ANYONE to name a better severance package out there. ANYONE.
I'm surprise MS lets its HR trolls use language like this. Perhaps this part of the $100M image makeover that's served shareholders so well recently.
According to LHH, over half of US employers offer severance on par with MS. Several do better e.g.:
Yahoo (Dec 08 layoff) - 63 days job search, 60 days minimum severance
IBM - similar to MS, but "Global Redeployment Principles" prohibits managers from hiring from the outside if an IBM worker could do the job. Urges replacement of contractors with impacted employees.
Perhaps you think MS employees are better rewarded for their talents as well? You can dig up the facts on that one.
And while good people don't choose employers based on severance, the smart ones don't come to single-employer markets like Seattle without considering separation probabilities. The others take out sub-primes, buy Mcmansions, and bag on their peers after they are shown the door.
What happens if you are one of the lucky people that lost corpnet access and badge - seems to me that the chances of applying for a job within Microsoft are ZERO since we will alas be one of thousands of people going thru the ropes.
Microsoft Managers who think they cannot hire qualified US Citizens - PLEASE post your job opportunities and contract opportunities on a site readily accessible to displaced workers - maybe MSA Microsoft Alumni site?
I counted more than 160 H1B new job postings for Microsoft Corporation since 1/22/2008 - Why? And can displaced Microsoft employees who are US citizens apply ?
http://www.myvisajobs.com/Visa-Job-Sponsor/Microsoft-356252.htm
what will be my severance IF i come back to MS? I have work 5 years left for 1 year and then 3 years now?
do i get severance for 3 years or 8 years?
Hello all. I'm another of the 1400.
I didn't think to ask in "that meeting" whether I was permitted to interview for other internal positions. Call me naive, but it did not occur to me that anyone being laid off due to realignments and lack of work for their roles, rather than terminated for cause, would NOT be.
Some Mini posts now say that some people are allowed to interview, and some are not. How do I find out which group I fall into? (Former) coworkers have forwarded a number of internal opportunities to me that would be a good fit for my background and professional strengths, and I need to know if I can pursue them.
And does anyone know the percentage of people who are allowed to interview? (And, I suppose it's too much to ask, but any rumors on the criteria used to make those decisions?)
TIA
The microsoft.com carreers web site for the US is down. When you get to http://members.microsoft.com/careers/default.aspx you're treated to this:
The log file for database 'Careers' is full. Back up the transaction log for the database to free up some log space.
Description: An unhandled exception occurred during the execution of the current web request. Please review the stack trace for more information about the error and where it originated in the code.
Exception Details: System.Data.SqlClient.SqlException: The log file for database 'Careers' is full. Back up the transaction log for the database to free up some log space.
Source Error:
An unhandled exception was generated during the execution of the current web request. Information regarding the origin and location of the exception can be identified using the exception stack trace below.
Stack Trace:
[SqlException (0x80131904): The log file for database 'Careers' is full. Back up the transaction log for the database to free up some log space.]
MSArm.UI.Common.XpSession.CreateNew(HttpContext Context) +461
MSArm.UI.Common.XpPage.CreateNewSession(String redirectUrl, Boolean signout) +81
MSArm.UI.Common.XpPage.CheckSession() +4333
Microsoft.HRIT.Staffing.Web.External.Pages.HomePage.Page_Load(Object sender, EventArgs e) +43
System.Web.UI.Control.OnLoad(EventArgs e) +99
System.Web.UI.Control.LoadRecursive() +47
System.Web.UI.Page.ProcessRequestMain(Boolean includeStagesBeforeAsyncPoint, Boolean includeStagesAfterAsyncPoint) +1436
Is there anything HR won't f*** up?
Fellow displaced MS employees - I found 160 + new job postings for Microsoft Corporation since 1/22/2008... Check here for potential opportunities:
http://www.myvisajobs.com/Visa-Job-Sponsor/Microsoft-356252.htm
New H1B Jobs Sponsored by Microsoft Corporation posted Sunday January 25 2009 include:
Branding Manager - 233775
Microsoft Corporation Visa Rank H1B Visa Summary-- Seattle, WA
......the Microsoft and MSN businesses together by innovating, learning, and showcasing new forms of Microsoft advertising and technologies while meeting Microsoft... ...... Apply
From TheLadders.com -- Jan 25, 2009
Technical Product Manager
Microsoft Entertainment & Devices Visa Rank H1B Visa Summary-- Redmond, WA
......present to and evangelize senior leaders within Microsoft and partner companies on our product roadmap and... leaders within Microsoft and partner organizations... ...... Apply
From CollegeRecruiter.com -- Jan 25, 2009
Game Designer
Microsoft Entertainment & Devices Visa Rank H1B Visa Summary-- Redmond, WA
......Job Title:Game Designer Job Category:Game Design Product:(Not Product Specific) Date Posted:01/13/2009 Job Code:251924 Location:WA - Redmond... ...... Apply
From CollegeRecruiter.com -- Jan 25, 2009
User Experience Designer
Microsoft Entertainment & Devices Visa Rank H1B Visa Summary-- Redmond, WA
......Job Title:User Experience Designer Job Category:Product Design Product:(Not Product Specific) Date Posted:01/13/2009 Job Code:251710 Location:WA... ...... Apply
From CollegeRecruiter.com -- Jan 25, 2009
Art Director Games
Microsoft Entertainment & Devices Visa Rank H1B Visa Summary-- Redmond, WA
......Job Title:Art Director - Games Job Category:Game Design Product:Games Date Posted:12/24/2008 Job Code:251340 Location:WA - Redmond Travel... ...... Apply
From CollegeRecruiter.com -- Jan 25, 2009
H1B filings are maintained by DOL. In fact you could go back several years and download excell files for all H1B filings by Microsoft, the Level, designation and salary, of course no names. 7 years ago I could look at my H1B entry (because I knew my level, date of filing and my salary). I dont think Microsoft hires H1B like cheap labors. If you look at the spreadsheet you will be surprised. 6 Years ago when I checked L62s were getting paid some 90 to 95k and one L62 was paid $120k, I guess some team wanted that person desperately.
>> Microsoft has the cash to buy their
>> company if they are a threat.
Except Microsoft is not the only tech company that has the money these days. There's this other company in Mountain View, CA that likes to buy early-stage startups very much. Surely we wouldn't want the creme de la creme of various world-renown schools and research labs to end up there?
The OP had it right - there needs to be something in PM CSP's about collaborating with Research. At the same time there needs to be oversight so that this collaboration also serves business and long-term strategic needs, otherwise PM's will collaborate for the sake of putting something on their yearly review and getting a promo.
It would also help if someone from senior management articulated clearly WTF our long-term strategic needs are. As things stand, Microsoft reminds me of a kid with a severe case of ADHD.
What is TREAT?
I'm sure I don't want to know, but please share.
"Email HR for a list of all positions in Microsoft that are filled with H1, in fact, all WORK VISAs (not citizens, not green card holders). They HAVE that information because they must record it for the Feds."
First of all, I do not have anything against H1 visa holders and I have many friends on H1 visa.
Still, I think they also must realize the positions were offered to them because no US citizens / Green Card holders with matching qualifications were available. This is the law, although it is almost never practised. Companies are required to post these jobs to generel public and positively confirm to INS that they couldn't find any qualified US citizens or green card holders. Law doesn't say anything about that companies should look for the "best" qualified people when this determination is done. It is just having people with matching qualifications. I would recommend to all US citizens and green card holders to ask Microsoft for the list of job qualifications of all the H1 visa holders and apply directly to these positions. If Microsoft doesn't provide the list please involve a lawyer and write to all the 50 senetors of the US because Microsoft is violating the laws of the United States.
Again, please and plese this post has anything to do with xenophobia or anti-immigration. This is just the survival for a lot of us. Economy is so bad and some of us can loose all of our possesions including our houses and life savings. This action is absolutely fare.
The economy sucks people. Shit like this is gonna happen. All the gloaters at APPL and GOOG: your time is coming. Laugh while you can. People will soon be unable to prop up the "upgrade very year" APPL business model for that latest white cube.
___________________________________
If that's the case, then why did Apple just have their best quarter in the history of their company while in the midst of one of the worst economic times of our country's history?
Microsoft employees like you should be admired for how much you love your company. But from the outside looking in, it would seem that you - as well as your CEO - are in deep denial over Apple. They own over 50% of the market share in the over $1000 dollar portable computers which are the only ones that make a profit for MSFT. Their phone is creating revenue for themselves and for developers that is astounding. They own the number one music store in the world. Their stores feature some of the most superior customer service around. I am a Microsoft share holder, but I think this is the last straw. I'm going to take a massive loss, but everything I've got in your company is going to Apple now. Not because I think Microsoft is bereft of really amazing, talented employees and great leadership. I do. I just don't think you all have a collective sense of what people want anymore.
Mini, apologies if this is disrespectful as I know you love Microsoft. I did too. I'm still rooting for you. I simply can't afford you any longer.
So help me understand this. If we need to pay foreign workers the same pay as American citizens, AND pay for relocation, visas, etc. there would seem to me that there is no cost advantage to hiring a foreign national as to an American.
I am a naturalized citizen and I love this country. I, like everyone else, think there are a lot of things wrong with this country. But I still think this is the greatest nation on the face of this planet. And in spite of our faults, I find it incredible that we simply are not turning out the number of workers that an American company needs.
Given that premise (which someone may tell me I am wrong), why is the company still petitioning the government for more visas? It would appear the cost would be much higher!
I don't know about your group my all work came to a sudden halt last week w/ the anxiety surrounding the layoffs. This can't be good for the long run.
Mini,
Not sure if you are cross-linking to other bloggers, but now that I have more time on my hands I figured I might get in the game as well.
http://14hundred.blogspot.com
I leave the conversation about the miniaturization of Microsoft (out of love and respect for that institution) here, and take up the charge of helping chart our futures. I think that – united – that future might be brighter than some imagine.
In other news:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/jan/25/google-drive-gdrive-internet
I've been unhappy for some time. Although I was not hit by the layoffs, it's likely that I will leave the company. There are diseconomies of scale in play that aren't worth figuring out in the long run. A lot of these happen in any significantly large company. I suppose it is important to realize that, with all of the complaining going on here - there are some things that are simply a side effect of company size, which no amount of complaining will solve.
Regarding the response to: Regarding some of the comments regarding H-1 workers
I suggest you might try searching the internet and read the law.
http://www.dol.gov/compliance/guide/h1b.htm
The employer, before applying for H-1B status for any alien worker pursuant to an H-1B LCA, took good faith steps to recruit U.S. workers for the job for which the alien worker is sought, at wages at least equal to those offered to the H-1B worker. Also, the employer will offer the job to any U.S. worker who applies and is equally or better qualified than the H-1B worker. This attestation does not apply if the H-1B worker is a "priority worker" within the meaning of Section 203(b)(1)(A), (B), or (C) of the INA.
Having said that, I work with several H1B workers and I respect them as equal colleagues.
The H1B program makes sense in times of prosperity when the U.S. has a shortage of a skilled workforce. It does not make sense when U.S. citizens are losing their jobs.
I respect that these foreign workers may have purchased a house, started or moved a family and have ties to the area.
I don't believe these workers should have been the first to go as some of you have suggested, but I do believe the program should be suspended completely until economy comes out of the recession.
Mini - I'm interested to know what your expectations were of MSFT when you started this blog, on how MSFT would have slimmed down? Has reality met your expectation on how MSFT handled it (other than it's less than what you were hoping for)? Or has reality been hell and you wish that you didn't wish for what you wished for?
Are you kidding me? Working for Apple - a company that pays a ridiculously small compensation and is well known for the stressful environment? (I have friends there, BTW). No thanks, I wouldn't want to become Steve Job's slave (or Tim Cook's). But maybe that's just me.
Hmmm... I actually earn more at Apple than I did at Microsoft. However, I will concede that the bennies aren't quite as good and the cost of living in Silicon Valley is considerably higher than the east side of Lake Washington.
As for the stress issue, I never said it was easy. Building great products takes long hours and hard work. I'm sure many good people inside Microsoft can attest to that. (Some of them are my friends, BTW.) The point I was trying to make is that my role at Apple allows me to focus on my engineering skills rather than my political ones, and that makes me happy! So does being part of a team - and a company - where people aren't driven to undermine one another just to preserve their place on the curve.
Then again, maybe you're right. Maybe the Kool-Aid just tastes better here and I should free myself from the tyranny of Jobs and return to the loving arms of Ballmer. :p
Well, for one: Microsoft. Jawad (still on payroll), Rick Belluzzo ($13MM loan waived). Then let's look at management consulting and investment bankers - L62 types and up would get a minimum of $100K with insurance for 3-6 months, plus an office to work out of to find a new job.
-b'atcha
> Given how well Microsoft is doing the severance is nothing to write home about. There are employers that offer better severances.
---
Really? AYFKM? Frankly, I challenge ANYONE to name a better severance package out there. ANYONE.
Sunday, January 25, 2009 8:52:00 AM
For guys complaining about H1-B and MS's unfair layoff practices, I think some of you deserved it. Please accept the fact and digest it before you go venting. I don't work for MS, but I am very passionate about MS products and work for a MS shop. MS products - dev tools are simply the best. MS has a scatter shoot strategy when it comes to taking on competition.
If at all the mgmt can learn a lesson here, it is just that the market landscape has changed drastically and MS cannot pull out a victory dance just by muscling its way out of free cash flow and the monopoly it enjoys on desktop computing environment.
I think this post has turned itself into some kind of a social experiment where the losers talk about the survival of the fittest and are entitled to the jobs of those who still work there. Ballmer was right, when he said this is a RESET. To all those paper pushing morons who care just about advancing their own strategy, this will serve as a check point, I hope.
For some who are planning to file a law suit against MS for unfair layoffs, please don't. You won't win it and you don't deserve to win. I am sure MS legal dept has already started spinning their wheels and they are 20 steps ahead of the curve. One thing MS still has it going is its legal department and I don't think the minions can chase away the lions.
So what do you do? For the time being, STFU. Think. Go to career sites and start networking. The sooner you do this, sooner you will get out of this mess. More people are going to join the jobless pool and it is only going to get tough.
On the positive side, besides the layoffs Win7 is getting rave reviews. WinMo 6.5 - WTF is that? Go XBoX!!! People here don't appreciate the value of a money making product. Partly many of you have not launched a product before. You guys don't know the nuances and the leadership it takes. Most of you joined after the 90s during the peak of MS and you can rightfully boast about your wise choices and how smart you are. Just step into dice.com and see how many jobs really require MS skills. You will be amazed.
I hope the following happens if Ballmer can get into his bald head.
- Change the overall performance review system.
- I don't understand the level of redundancy of PM's. Ex: Why the fuck do you need a PM for designing the avatar for a XBox Console?
- Lose Zune. At least, one of the posts got it right - it is a brick that comes in pink, except it sounds better than iPod.
- I hope all the loud mouth/blabber mouths here just leave the company and go away. And soon the other morons can join you.
Then you end up having a MiniMsft.
And we can close this blog once and for all.
Regarding the comment that leads are also supposed to be IC's and manage people, I agree with the other comments that it has stopped being so in MS a lot time ago. Especially in the test org, none of my leads owned any features or were testing the product. I bet my current lead cannot run our BVT's or does not know how we use WTT in our team. I am sure he can figure it out but does not care because that is not going to get him the promotion/visibility that he seeks. They spend too much time on scheduling and obtaining the status from IC's and are in meetings all the time.
for the poster asking what TREAT is
it was pretty much a secretive weekend boondoggle for a number (~800) high level prinicpal and partner types.
Someone let the cat out of the bag in the mini comment section, after which LisaB quickly did damage control, she posted on insidems explaining what it is and then had a micronews story for it
no doubt one of many embarassing defeats of LisaB by mini, what a joke of an HR director
MSFT would be better off to throw in the towel and let Google be seen for the monopoly that they are. That will attract the attention of the EU and DOJ.
Interesting concept. Can antitrust law be used to make Google unbundle the advertising system from search using logic similar to the EU's new case about IE?
I.E. in a monopoly situation users should be able to choose from competing advertising providers or alternatively choose not to receive advertising at all.
Good luck to all who have been laid off.
Microsoft is no better or worse than other large comapanies when it comes to efficiency. GM's and above travel like kings and ignore edicts to save money on travel (first class all the way, black cars with drivers, meal allowances that would feed small countries for a day). All the while the staff shares rooms, travels coach and takes public transportation. If you ever see a VP in coach, you know it was a mistake by their admin. Real savings starts with sacrifice at the top, not the bottom.
The layoffs this time are small and were badly handled. They should have reduced the number of GM's by 500 and that would have really saved money. Each GM dreams of VP land and works hard to preserve their empire instead of produce something.
Good luck to all who remain, try and stay positive.
>My understanding of middle management is the following people:
PUM
GPM
Dev Mgr
Test Mgr
Group Mgr
etc
So, basically, people in the 64-66 range, level-wise.
The majority of these people absolutely contribute nothing at Microsoft. They're obstructionists more so that being supposed "visionaries".
As an IC for ten years and reporting to many managers I can say that this is not entirely true. I would say about 25%-40% are doing sweet Fanny Adams. There are a lot of excellent managers in this company it just takes a few unqualified managers to f@#$ up things for many highly technical/qualified individuals.
>> For some who are planning to file a law suit against MS for unfair layoffs, please don't. You won't win it and you don't deserve to win. I am sure MS legal dept has already started spinning their wheels and they are 20 steps ahead of the curve.
Sounds like an HR/LCA troll trying to discourage those who were laid off from pursuing it.
Don't guess about this. Look at the company's history. Ask the permatemps and Europe (EU) about how impossible it is to win against the formidable MS legal department. It's doable, but only if people believe that and try.
I already have my first short-term, part-time consulting gig. I'll land on my feet. But I still feel that it is likely a law or contract provision was violated by this week's events, and would be strongly tempted to participate in a class action if I agreed with its grounds. It's nothing personal, just business. Capitalism isn't just for business owners, it's for everyone.
To anonymous Sunday, January 25, 2009 3:15:00 PM - your severance payout is based on your service date which should be 8 years. I would double check in headtrax to confirm your service award date.
TIA - Did you have to turn in your badge on Friday? If you did, then you were not given a job search. This does not mean you can't apply for a job, but you will have to do it from the external site. You will not be given any special consideration or have access to the internal career site.
Re: Regarding the response to: Regarding some of the comments regarding H-1 workers
The quoted text referring to a requirement for good faith recruitment of a US worker applies only to "an H-1B dependent employer". Microsoft Corporation does not meet the definition of an "H-1B dependent employer" and hence is not subject to the requirement for good faith recruitment of US workers prior to hiring a foreign worker under the H1-B program.
TIA - Did you have to turn in your badge on Friday? If you did, then you were not given a job search. This does not mean you can't apply for a job, but you will have to do it from the external site. You will not be given any special consideration or have access to the internal career site.
Do those given the job search get any special consideration beyond the earlier notice of openings that the career site provides?
I'm glad to hear I can apply for openings. I'm disheartened that I don't have the same ability to research product groups before walking into an interview, as those who still have corpnet access do.
to Sunday 11:27 AM and others on the severance package:
I reviewed some of the paperwork and it went like this. 60 days of pay and considered to be on the payroll including benefits; actual date of termination is March 23rd. Considered an employee on the payroll until that date (but with no corpnet ect access). Plus, there's actual severance pay on top of it, vacation pay payout, and money towards continuation of benefits after the loss of employment.
As one of the 'lucky' 1400, I have been reviewing the package (level 64 & below) and noted the following:
'Your severance pay will be reduced by any period of pay you are provided under the WARN Act or any similar laws and any paid leave provided to you in connection with your termination.'.
In other words, by my reading, the 60 days base pay mandated by WARN includes your unpaid vacation time. It appears that we will not be paid out for vacation time ON TOP OF the 60 days. The unpaid vacation time will offset pay we would have received as part of the WARN notice.
Complete BS. Would love to learn that I'm wrong about MS' position on this.
I concurr with Previous Anonymous who said about our current reality that ".. what I saw which was 90% internal focus and 10% external focus!". This is quite true and has become worst since kturner come to the company. He brought the Scorecards that permeate to all level and that demand so much attention from field and above that we waste most of our time just trying to avoid Red or Yellow, we are not caring for quality, process and not even customer, just the color of the lights on Kevin's scorecard. Leave the scorecards out, lets not spent internal time showing green lights and let us go to the external customer.
"In other words, by my reading, the 60 days base pay mandated by WARN includes your unpaid vacation time. It appears that we will not be paid out for vacation time ON TOP OF the 60 days. The unpaid vacation time will offset pay we would have received as part of the WARN notice."
Are you sure about this? Based on my conversation with HR I could have sworn they told me my vacation time would not only be added on to the lump sum payout at the end, but would continue to accrue during the 60 days. Guess it is one more question to add to my list...
Hey Sunday, January 25, 2009 10:57:00 PM...
I'm glad to hear I can apply for openings. I'm disheartened that I don't have the same ability to research product groups before walking into an interview, as those who still have corpnet access do.
My sense is that anyone who was laid off would be starting with 4 strikes against them. Being selected for the layoff will probably be seen as a 'scarlet letter' by most hiring managers and HR.
In my experience, managers (and HR staff) at Microsoft operate from the assumption that all other managers are reliable and infallible: they are going to assume you were laid off because you were the "dead wood" on some other manager's team, and they are going to be very, very reluctant to give you a chance. They believe in the system -- they're the ones who are benefitting from that system, so it's only natural for them to feel that it's fair and a true meritocracy. It's very self-reinfocing.
I think it's probably safe to assume that anyone in the first wave has virtually no chance of even getting an interview, never mind actually being hired.
I'm looking elsewhere. Hopefully someplace where the inmates are not running the asylum.
To anonymous Sunday, January 25, 2009 3:15:00 PM - your severance payout is based on your service date which should be 8 years. I would double check in headtrax to confirm your service award date.
Actually, that is incorrect. If you were at MS for 5 years, left for a year and then came back for 3(as 3:15 did), odds are you will be treated as a 3-year employee. Sometimes when someone comes back to MS, they can negotiate back in their years of prior service, but you have to explicitly requst that (and have it granted by the new hiring manager).
Your accrued vacation pay is considered "earned" pay at the date of your termination of employment.
This has to be paid out to you on the next regular pay cycle after your termination date.
Your termination date is 60 days after your job elimination date.
The 60 days between your elimination date and termination date are to satisfy the WARN requirement (in leiu of notice).
I highly recommend that if you are concerned about your severance package that you contact outside legal counsel (i.e. - hire a lawyer at $300/hr for about an hour at most) to review it and answer any questions you may have.
Do not count on blogs, legal advice boards, etc for the final word on this. Talk to a professional that is licensed to practice law in your state.
Criminals. Failures. It didn't have to be this way. To those who lost jobs, my thoughts are with you. To those with jobs, my hopes are with you that you are not in the 3,600. To those who regard themselves as above this or seem to think that performers don't have to worry, I issue a challenge. If you are as good as you say and you are all about the "greater good" why don't you work to change things and help eliminate the 3,600 pink slips coming the way they are. I am not saying stop layoffs or resist downsizing, but help steer it to a smarter reduction if one need occur. It doesn't have to be this way.
For over 10 years I did all I could for the company and was rewarded with regular gold stars and rose from PM to Director. I am better off for the experience and it still makes be a better person today. I didn't leave Msft, at least the msft I thought I worked for. I left some other company - not the Msft I joined. Sure, some will sit back and say here we go again with some sad story from an out-of-touch softie who needs to let go. Perhaps. Once I left I never looked back until this weekend when I was curious how the blog reacted to all of this. I want to agree with all of those who say the "we will be okay if we just work harder, we can make a difference." I want to agree because it used to be close to true but sadly, few really can. I started at Msft but I felt I left Safeco or some other day-to-day job. I respect the opinions but I am saddened that people defend this by saying how "real world" it is. Well, we were never a real world company. We didn't have to be. It still doesn't.
I am stunned that those who professes to love the company and believe so deeply that it is worth all the sacrifice are also willing to settle. I never was and when that was the only future for the company, I left. I'm not going to gloat or complain, I don't really care for the post-Msft everything is rosy comments I read. It is different. Benefits were taken for granted by me, pay is better for some, worse for others I know. The thing is that for me, and many I know, staying was the only option worse than leaving.
It will be easy for some to label me or dismiss me, that is the right of anyone in a blog like this. Perhaps my writing is more for me than others, I don't really know. I just feel strongly that people are hurting and being hurt and I just look at lost and missed opportunities. I made an amazing living there. I rose higher than most would have ever dreamed of. I presented to Billg. Kind of a jerk in person but was a great experience for me. Traveled the world. Worked with the smartest people I have ever met. I remember making a conscious choice to wear the blue badge in plain sight back when it was a badge of honor. I get that it is a "different world" but I don't get why it is so different. Here is why I opened with such strong words. Hoping to read some feedback and others opinions regardless of tone and point of view - that is what made it so cool there - I hope that hasn't changed.
Criminals? As someone who worked with VP's and folks at all levels across the company I used to summarily dismiss the ranting of the "haters" as we called them. I am not one of those....or have I actually become one.....I guess I don't know. The core of Msft has been and will always be the OS- to challenge this I would ask someone to present a strong case for any product or service that is where it is without the benefit of this monopoly. Office? Sorry, I was involved there and I know how the early days of our practices put that product where it is. Frankly, what else is there other than those two? I keep reading about the loser steveb is, and frankly I think I agree with most of those posts, but was billg all that better? Is Msft better off for all of his last 10 years of leadership or did he leave the company the way it was a decade ago, or worse. Once the practices that you are regulated for did get the os and office rolling it would have taken a real loser to mess up that machine. IMO, that did not happen. But what else did that is anything like that success....or leads in any market sector. Rather, he left a legacy of failed and late entrances and some staggering legal costs and fines.
Ask yourself this: How many jobs needed to be lost if we didn't have to pay billions in legal fees, fines, and strategists to keep defending the sins of the past. Do you know how fast and how big the internal and external legal machine has gotten (for every contractor you have to let go ask yourself this: are we cutting back on outside legal fees in any country in the world?). Billg was and will always be a hero to me in some aspects but he failed miserably as the head of anything other than the os and office. But he failed at the thing I never imagined. He failed you 1,400, you 3,600, and the rest of us that either left dismayed or are still there. It didn't have to be this way. Investing billions in business models that never made sense and never panned out and spending billions on fines for decisions you made and ending up with a company that is no better than what you already had a decade ago is nothing short of a failure of his leadership and no, balmer is no better.
I keep saying it didn't have to be this way. I look at the argument so many "haters" made to me for years. It wasn't that our code was any good it was that better code never had a chance to see the market. As one who marched in the group to squash any potential serious threat it has taken a long time to value their position, but I see it more clearly now and I see it through this round of what is likely only the tip of the iceberg in layoffs and in cuts into the "package" you all signed up for. It is simply this. It was always about the people. It is what I hear over and over again....working with the best and brightest was and is amazing. Getting the most out of the best and brightest led to amazing things. That is makes me sad when I see the folks say how all other companies go through this or times like these are what is causing this. WTF? What other companies have no debt? What other companies have the billions of ready cash? What other companies can say with a straight face that they have had the best and brightest for the last decade? I suspect someday the very companies that we compete with will be the answer to those questions.
Billg failed us. Steveb will continue to. HR, faith in Lisa???? Many of us saw that as the official end of a company that used to value the people.
Those that defend all of this base most of what they say on the fact that this was and is done because of the size of the company...a company that never should have grown to this and in this way. That is on billg and steve together. The argument that as a public company we have to do all of this.....for shareholder value, right???? Where is that and how has that been working for us for the last 5 or so years. Shame on those who let this happen. Shame on me and others who were naive to think we had a different kind of company. Shame on all those, past and present, who allowed this march to just another company. It didn't have to be this way and I don't know if you all can ever slow it, let alone turn it around. Am I alone in this type of thinking? Am I off base? I'd love to read and see what people are thinking beyond the initial shock or pain they feel. Do you feel you are making that difference you thought you were? What does it say about a company when the strongest advocates seem to agree that this is business as usual and yet see great things ahead. It seems contradictory to me. It is either a great company that is different because of the people - and the people are different because of the company and how they are valued and treated; or, it is just another business and things like this happen in just any business.
While MSFT has the right to what they need to for their business the recent cuts are much more than people losing their jobs. It affects the whole tech industry and deeply affects every community where Microsoft touches - even if they don;t have an office in the area. i wrote a blog post about this a few weeks ago - It was entitled "Welcome to the MotherShip Land - Please Stay" - Link: http://jshueywa.blogspot.com/2009/01/welcome-to-mothership-land-please-stay.html
The point of this blog post was more of a plea for MS to do what it needed to do, but to be cognizant that what they do has a wide ranging impact.
I worked for Microsoft for 5 years. I loved working for Microsoft for many reasons - not the least of which was the pride that we were doing a lot of good. Some may disagree with this point, but I beg to differ with them. I worked on the partner team and focused on helping partners grow their business. Yes, Microsoft benefited to, but most important was the fact that we were helping customers around the world.
I'm not naive enough to think this day could not have come. However, I do think it could have been handled differently. Hindsight is 20-20 and I'm sure there will be many, many arm chair quarterbacks evaluating this one.
My suggestion to all those affected --- Keep the Faith! There are things out there. I know - I was laid off from Open Text in Nov 2008. I have spoken to numerous companies - SI's, ISV's, vendors and consulting firms. There are things out there. Keep the Faith.
Feel free to contact me directly via e-mail: jeff_shuey@hotmail.com or follow me on Twitter (@jshuey) or find me on Facebook and LinkedIn (Jeff Shuey).
"GM's and above travel like kings and ignore edicts to save money on travel (first class all the way, black cars with drivers, meal allowances that would feed small countries for a day). All the while the staff shares rooms, travels coach and takes public transportation. If you ever see a VP in coach, you know it was a mistake by their admin. Real savings starts with sacrifice at the top, not the bottom."
Um, my GM and VP travel just like everyone else -- coach for domestic, business class for transcontinental.
We all stay in very nice -- but not extravagant -- hotels when we travel. We all eat well, but we're not buying 300.00 bottles of wine.
I've also heard that there are groups who still share rooms, but the last 3 I've been with have not... sharing sleeping and bathing quarters with strangers isn't really a great idea in the modern world of HR-based litigation. Should I ever find myself asked to share a room with a random coworker, I would laugh and say that's so 90s!. :)
Yes..MGS RTC..Its truely sad...they are all loyal microsoftees, with great talent...i think they lacked descretion and prudence while making this decision..
"Should I ever find myself asked to share a room with a random coworker, I would laugh and say that's so 90s!. :)"
I suppose you have never attended MGB, MGX, tech Ready, Huge team offsites etc where when you attend in thousands you share room. You can laugh all you want but no way an org can book 15000 rooms for an event like MGB
Why would you ever book 15,000 rooms? Seriously? This company is gone, Foley's book on the company isn't about how the company will stay relevant - its about how the company dropped the ball and lost relevance. But that was 10 years ago.
"Ex-msft employee here (2000-2007) I work for a great company right now and we have 2 open positions in Manhattan (level 67+ pay for an IC... but remember that it's expensive to live here). Does anyone have any suggestions on how to specifically reach ex-msft employees? Most job boards are location specific, so most people in Redmond won't be looking in NY."
Dude, same here. I was 2000-2008 and am hiring in the greater NYC area. I need 3 developers with C#/.NET and SQL skills. I don't know how to reach people that are good that either got laid off or want to leave. Yes, my company recruiter can do a search, but I want to reach those that were affected or hurting. Any takers...can we find a way to connect? (sorry can't sponsor visas, citizen or green card only)
-might consider posting in facebook :2009 MSFT Laid off Workers
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=49462626446
I work for SMSG outside of the US. the chances of my being in the 5000 is ZERO. its ZERO even if this figure was 10000.
the fact of the matter is, i will still look to change my job now. the reason is that the inflation figures in my country are around 10% year on year. if i am sure that my pay will not increase for the next 18 months atleast; this will make me actually LOOSE money.
this is a good enough reason for many good to outstanding performers like me to make a move.
a very dumb move on part of MS.
""Should I ever find myself asked to share a room with a random coworker, I would laugh and say that's so 90s!. :)"
I suppose you have never attended MGB, MGX, tech Ready, Huge team offsites etc where when you attend in thousands you share room. You can laugh all you want but no way an org can book 15000 rooms for an event like MGB"
We don't need 15,000 Microsoft employees attending MGB, oh my god!
Ditto transcontinental travel: taking away business class for people who must fly overseas for work is fracking insane -- having just returned from an exhausting week in Europe I would have been far less effective had I travelled coach. What we need to do is curtail a bunch of long-haul travel that isn't necessary, so the people who do need to travel can do it in a manner that allows them to remain healthy and productive.
If we were to get serious about innovating in remote video conferencing -- like serious for real, pushing the tech forward -- we could eliminate 75% of travel in 5 years... that would save the company tens of millions each year easily.
"Ex-msft employee here (2000-2007) I work for a great company right now and we have 2 open positions in Manhattan (level 67+ pay for an IC... but remember that it's expensive to live here). Does anyone have any suggestions on how to specifically reach ex-msft employees? Most job boards are location specific, so most people in Redmond won't be looking in NY."
Dude, same here. I was 2000-2008 and am hiring in the greater NYC area. I need 3 developers with C#/.NET and SQL skills. I don't know how to reach people that are good that either got laid off or want to leave. Yes, my company recruiter can do a search, but I want to reach those that were affected or hurting. Any takers...can we find a way to connect? (sorry can't sponsor visas, citizen or green card only)
I am a current MS employee who hasn't been laid off (in the first round), but am so demoralized that I would be happy to leave for a more exciting opportunity where I could actual have some real impact in delivering great products to customers. I would love to hear about these NY area opportunities - how can we connect?
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